Mgh-there were safety precautions at Red Bull and no one has been injured as a result of the race. Red Bull will be cancelled because the benefits gained are outweighed by liability should an accident ever happen.As far as arguing further with you I have already learned there is no point, and in this case this is my opinion based on experience. We have been turning slowliy into a world of enabled, litigious, complainers and the quality of life has and will continue to suffer...and yes in the early days of flight simmings you did not see so much complaining.

I accept we shall not agree. I spent my professional life working with the world as it actually is - politicians, lawyers, litigation and all. If I'd ignored all that and tried to work in any imaginary world as it might have existed in the past, nothing useful would have been achieved -. approvals, permits, permissions, etc just wouldn't have been granted and no progress would have been made.

...and yes in the early days of flight simmings you did not see so much complaining.

Geofa. Consider these points...harsh for sure but a gut check is in order here.In the early days of flight simulation everything was FREEWARE. There is always far less complaining when someone gives you something for free. Case in point: If someone mows your lawn for free and its not perfect I doubt any complaints will be forthcoming. When a lawn service charges you $90 to mow your lawn and its not adequate, complaints will be forth coming. If someone give you a car for free and it rattled when you ran over bumps you'd tolerate it or fix it yourself. When you pay for a car and it rattles you take it back to dealership and you complain...and if it keeps happening you ask for your money back. If you download a freeware add-on for flight simulator and it crashes or locks up you simply delete it. If you purchase an add-on and it does the same you complain especially when most developers post a no refund policy even if the issue is due to their own negligence!The difference between now and then is not necessarily that people have gotten ruder, its rather that the developer-to-simmer relationship has changed over the years from benefactor to seller. I've heard you say repeatedly that developers are getting out of the market because of complaints and I'm not sure why they believe they are exempt from the same realities of any other for cash business. I own a consulting company but whom should I blame when the customer calls with a complaint: My employee for doing a less than adequate job or the customer for complaining about it? Methinks that some developers do more whining than the community instead of spending that time raising the bar and addressing the issues.I think the stupidest argument yet is that one should not complain unless one can do better and that is just beyond asinine in premise. I'm not a farmer but I don't want rotten tomatoes. I can't build a house but I don't want it to leak when it rains. I can't build a car but I don't want the wheel to fall off when I drive. I am not a doctor but I don't want the wrong leg amputated. I can't program software but I don't want software that doesn't do what it is supposed to. Should I accept a sub par product simply because I am not a manufacturer of that product? Isn't this why we pay for things? And if we pay someone else for a service or product shouldn't we expect it to work as promised or be reasonably assured that it will be fixed?I hear quite a few developers whining about consumer complaints but instead to learning from the previous product they REPEAT the same faults over and over again and blame the consumers for being upset! Of course there are more than the fair share of consumers who don't read before buying and I truly do feel sorry for the developers who have do deal with this because this is NOT the fault of the developers, as you said, this is a lack of personal responsibility. But you know what? It's time for a DEVELOPER gut check. Developers need to suck it up and stop complaining (as my drill instructor often admonished me in Officer Candidate School) this is the line of business they chose, they know what the landscape is like (or should know) and it is what it is. The flight sim market it tough, profits and relatively low, and the clientèle are hard to please. But it is what it is. Let me leave you with a little story: As a young officer candidate I hated getting up at 4:00am every morning. I didn't get enough sleep, I had to walk on forced marches in excess of 25 miles with everything in my locker in my rucksack, I got yelled at whether is was my fault or not, I was cold, I was hungry, my back hurt, my feet were swollen, my head was shaved and I got paid less then minimum wage to be there and nothing I did would please the drill instructors. Yet I WAS there, it was MY choice, MY responsibility and MY dream. so instead of complaining about being criticized about everything I did and being tired and everything else, I did it better and harder until the drill instructors had nothing left to complain about. My boots were shinier than theirs. I was in formation before they were. I sang cadence louder than everyone else. I learned the lessons and I sought perfection. I didn't always get everything perfect but it wasn't for a lack of trying and there were no excuses. almost 1/5 of the class dropped out but the rest of us stayed endured and my mom pinned my 2nd Lieutenant bars on my uniform. And for what? I still made crap money, worked long hours, and a year later they shipped us off to Desert Shield and Desert Storm. But this was my choice and my dream and it was up to me to do what I said I would do irrespective of what people are doing around me.I'm not here to mince words and coddle adults with fluffy cuddly words of encouragement. In the real world you get no points for showing up to work...you only get praise for going above and beyond what is required. Developers know (or should know) their market...they can either take the perceived negativity and make it a driving force to better their products OR they can come here on these forums and complain about how no one appreciates them and totally missing the fact that consumers vote with their wallets. The highest praise is when a customer comes back to buy from you again. But at the end of the day, THIS is business all over the world and Flight Simulation is not some fairy world where elves make cookies in hollow logs and sprites hold hands and sing kum-bye-yah. Life is hard and business is harder.This is NOT meant to paint all developers with the same brush because most developers are not here complaining they are coding the next bar-raising product. But for those developers who feel that they are not getting the love they deserve...gut check time.Dis-missed! :(

That's the most persuasive post I've read on Avsim. Well crafted, Mike.

Mike, first I'm sure you found soon enough that whining and complaining about your personal situation got you absolutely no where fast.I'm just as sure that the public marketplace ain't the military.I'm convinced that "consumer advocy group think" and the false notion that the "customer is always right" have contributed a great deal to the negative attitudes in the FS world.Allow me to quickly state that while I agree with the essence of Geofs view of a number of societal ills the subject is... "why there is so much complaing in the FS world."As an owner of development house I can remember our first encounters with the negative side of the FS community and being startled at how vicious people can become over a $25.00 purchase.I also remember the bullying tactics used by consumers and of course the flat out lies posted by those who were either shills for competitors or simply liked to lie.I even remember a phone conversation you and I had along these lines a few years ago. The net result of all this "experience" is that developers either grow a thick hide or whimper away at the "injustice of it all".Our own best advice to fellow developers is to grow the thick hide, develop and support to your best ability, and don't allow the naysayers and liars to stop you.

Geofa. Consider these points...harsh for sure but a gut check is in order here.In the early days of flight simulation everything was FREEWARE. There is always far less complaining when someone gives you something for free. Case in point: If someone mows your lawn for free and its not perfect I doubt any complaints will be forthcoming. When a lawn service charges you $90 to mow your lawn and its not adequate, complaints will be forth coming. If someone give you a car for free and it rattled when you ran over bumps you'd tolerate it or fix it yourself. When you pay for a car and it rattles you take it back to dealership and you complain...and if it keeps happening you ask for your money back. If you download a freeware add-on for flight simulator and it crashes or locks up you simply delete it. If you purchase an add-on and it does the same you complain especially when most developers post a no refund policy even if the issue is due to their own negligence!The difference between now and then is not necessarily that people have gotten ruder, its rather that the developer-to-simmer relationship has changed over the years from benefactor to seller. I've heard you say repeatedly that developers are getting out of the market because of complaints and I'm not sure why they believe they are exempt from the same realities of any other for cash business. I own a consulting company but whom should I blame when the customer calls with a complaint: My employee for doing a less than adequate job or the customer for complaining about it? Methinks that some developers do more whining than the community instead of spending that time raising the bar and addressing the issues.I think the stupidest argument yet is that one should not complain unless one can do better and that is just beyond asinine in premise. I'm not a farmer but I don't want rotten tomatoes. I can't build a house but I don't want it to leak when it rains. I can't build a car but I don't want the wheel to fall off when I drive. I am not a doctor but I don't want the wrong leg amputated. I can't program software but I don't want software that doesn't do what it is supposed to. Should I accept a sub par product simply because I am not a manufacturer of that product? Isn't this why we pay for things? And if we pay someone else for a service or product shouldn't we expect it to work as promised or be reasonably assured that it will be fixed?I hear quite a few developers whining about consumer complaints but instead to learning from the previous product they REPEAT the same faults over and over again and blame the consumers for being upset! Of course there are more than the fair share of consumers who don't read before buying and I truly do feel sorry for the developers who have do deal with this because this is NOT the fault of the developers, as you said, this is a lack of personal responsibility. But you know what? It's time for a DEVELOPER gut check. Developers need to suck it up and stop complaining (as my drill instructor often admonished me in Officer Candidate School) this is the line of business they chose, they know what the landscape is like (or should know) and it is what it is. The flight sim market it tough, profits and relatively low, and the clientèle are hard to please. But it is what it is. Let me leave you with a little story: As a young officer candidate I hated getting up at 4:00am every morning. I didn't get enough sleep, I had to walk on forced marches in excess of 25 miles with everything in my locker in my rucksack, I got yelled at whether is was my fault or not, I was cold, I was hungry, my back hurt, my feet were swollen, my head was shaved and I got paid less then minimum wage to be there and nothing I did would please the drill instructors. Yet I WAS there, it was MY choice, MY responsibility and MY dream. so instead of complaining about being criticized about everything I did and being tired and everything else, I did it better and harder until the drill instructors had nothing left to complain about. My boots were shinier than theirs. I was in formation before they were. I sang cadence louder than everyone else. I learned the lessons and I sought perfection. I didn't always get everything perfect but it wasn't for a lack of trying and there were no excuses. almost 1/5 of the class dropped out but the rest of us stayed endured and my mom pinned my 2nd Lieutenant bars on my uniform. And for what? I still made crap money, worked long hours, and a year later they shipped us off to Desert Shield and Desert Storm. But this was my choice and my dream and it was up to me to do what I said I would do irrespective of what people are doing around me.I'm not here to mince words and coddle adults with fluffy cuddly words of encouragement. In the real world you get no points for showing up to work...you only get praise for going above and beyond what is required. Developers know (or should know) their market...they can either take the perceived negativity and make it a driving force to better their products OR they can come here on these forums and complain about how no one appreciates them and totally missing the fact that consumers vote with their wallets. The highest praise is when a customer comes back to buy from you again. But at the end of the day, THIS is business all over the world and Flight Simulation is not some fairy world where elves make cookies in hollow logs and sprites hold hands and sing kum-bye-yah. Life is hard and business is harder.This is NOT meant to paint all developers with the same brush because most developers are not here complaining they are coding the next bar-raising product. But for those developers who feel that they are not getting the love they deserve...gut check time.Dis-missed!

Mike-You must not have been around the early days of simming I was around cause I was buying the first add ins from bao/microsoft and the likes way before I even saw any freeware which came out much later well into the 1990's. Frankly, I have never used much freeware at all though I have contributed some myself.However and past flight simming I will state again- there is an increase of enabled ,litigious, lack of personal responsibility, first to complain mentality and it isn't just flight simulation.The internet is a great vehicle for this as the anonymous nature of the experience provides great cover. Meanwhile things like the Red Bull Races will be nevermore due to knee jerk reactions to such.Your story of your experience in the military is exactly what seems to be vanishing today-a code of personal honor.I am not against complaining when warranted and have done so myself many a time.I think the op's post addresses a different kind of complaining. I don't really see any disagreement.

The spirit in which the post was intended was that to reconsider what it is that we as consumers are complaining about, and for developers to listen perhaps a bit more. It's a double edged sword. To complain about something negligible breaks the process down I think, but to complain about a legitimate issue in a considerate way (such as a CTD or the likes) is in my opinion fair. If a developer said that they did not wish to develop in high fidelity the features of a flight management computer, I wouldn't as a consumer waste your breath complaining that it doesn't feature one, and if you did, you could simply ask "Are you considering adding a more fully featured FMC, because that is a feature I certainly would like."Often, I see situations deteriorate for little to no reason other than we are unable to read body language. Thus, well mannered attempts at typing become all that much more important. Take for example the following sentences:"Why is there no working air pressurization system?"VS."I see that there is no pressurization system. Was this intended?"The former automatically puts the developer on the defensive. You are asking them WHY, which makes it appear that you feel you are entitled to a response. The latter is the same question, just worded differently and very harmless."Why would we? It costs money to develop."VS."We decided early on that this was a feature that we would not include. Our limited resources do not allow us to develop this and it is not cost effective."If you saw the former response, it puts the customer on defense because you are de-legitimization the customer's question, even though it was not necessarily worded politely to begin with. The latter however is an appropriate response to the customer's question.In one situation the discussion dissolves quickly. In the other, a customer is given a legitimate response. I would hope that in the latter of the two that the customer accepts the answer and doesn't dwell on it.I'll reiterate however that a serious issue such as a CTD is something that the developer should try to fix. It makes the product unusable, and I feel the developer has the responsibility to at least ensure that the product WORKS as advertised. As a consumer, you'll always get a better response if you are polite. If the developer doesn't response politely back, well... now you know not to give them your money and/or can take other appropriate responses.All I wished to say in my essay was give an interesting perspective on all of this. Just like our parents used to say, "Think before you speak."Regards,-Cody

The spirit in which the post was intended was that to reconsider what it is that we as consumers are complaining about, and for developers to listen perhaps a bit more. It's a double edged sword. To complain about something negligible breaks the process down I think, but to complain about a legitimate issue in a considerate way (such as a CTD or the likes) is in my opinion fair. If a developer said that they did not wish to develop in high fidelity the features of a flight management computer, I wouldn't as a consumer waste your breath complaining that it doesn't feature one, and if you did, you could simply ask "Are you considering adding a more fully featured FMC, because that is a feature I certainly would like."Often, I see situations deteriorate for little to no reason other than we are unable to read body language. Thus, well mannered attempts at typing become all that much more important. Take for example the following sentences:"Why is there no working air pressurization system?"VS."I see that there is no pressurization system. Was this intended?"The former automatically puts the developer on the defensive. You are asking them WHY, which makes it appear that you feel you are entitled to a response. The latter is the same question, just worded differently and very harmless."Why would we? It costs money to develop."VS."We decided early on that this was a feature that we would not include. Our limited resources do not allow us to develop this and it is not cost effective."If you saw the former response, it puts the customer on defense because you are de-legitimization the customer's question, even though it was not necessarily worded politely to begin with. The latter however is an appropriate response to the customer's question.In one situation the discussion dissolves quickly. In the other, a customer is given a legitimate response. I would hope that in the latter of the two that the customer accepts the answer and doesn't dwell on it.I'll reiterate however that a serious issue such as a CTD is something that the developer should try to fix. It makes the product unusable, and I feel the developer has the responsibility to at least ensure that the product WORKS as advertised. As a consumer, you'll always get a better response if you are polite. If the developer doesn't response politely back, well... now you know not to give them your money and/or can take other appropriate responses.All I wished to say in my essay was give an interesting perspective on all of this. Just like our parents used to say, "Think before you speak."Regards,-Cody

Speaking of thinking before you speak-I remember when fsx first came out you and I connecting in a coincidental way to do some shared flights in the Baron.You did a shared flight over Alaska which you were familiar with and I did one in California which I was familair with.This during a period when complaints from some <ahem> were at a highlight.I seem to remember you left avsim in disgust of such at the time-I am glad to see you are back and have followed your wonderful videos from the start!

The internet is a great vehicle for this as the anonymous nature of the experience provides great cover.

I think the internet has a lot to do with it.The main problem is that everyone has their own view of what is acceptable and what isn't. Once again, I encourage the community to put together set standards across the board. Something like this could only be done by AVSIM and FS.com. We need standards for customer service, product performance, product descriptions, free trials/refunds... Companies could sign on to the standards on a voluntary basis and advertise that they uphold community standards. Of course, when you do something like this many will do the minimum just to keep the AVSIM seal of approval but it would be a lot better than having no standards at all.I have two main gripes with developers that set standards could solve.1. When a company offers a patch, many times they fail to list the date of the patch. Check out the patches listed for products at Simmarket - cryptic file names and no dates so it is impossible to tell if you need to install a patch.2. Developers list compatibility using different language. Many think that SP2 compatibility=Acceleration compatibility. Not true. If it wasn't tested with Acceleration but it was tested with SP2, they should say so. And while I am on this subject, why wouldn't the test with SP2 and Acceleration? Why don't they all test with the various operating systems that are currently in use. The way I look at it, there are 24 possible combinations of FSX installs and operating systems. 24 beta testers seems pretty reasonable to me. It is not like there is a shortage of people that are willing to test products.

I think the internet has a lot to do with it.The main problem is that everyone has their own view of what is acceptable and what isn't. Once again, I encourage the community to put together set standards across the board. Something like this could only be done by AVSIM and FS.com. We need standards for customer service, product performance, product descriptions, free trials/refunds... Companies could sign on to the standards on a voluntary basis and advertise that they uphold community standards. Of course, when you do something like this many will do the minimum just to keep the AVSIM seal of approval but it would be a lot better than having no standards at all.I have two main gripes with developers that set standards could solve.1. When a company offers a patch, many times they fail to list the date of the patch. Check out the patches listed for products at Simmarket - cryptic file names and no dates so it is impossible to tell if you need to install a patch.2. Developers list compatibility using different language. Many think that SP2 compatibility=Acceleration compatibility. Not true. If it wasn't tested with Acceleration but it was tested with SP2, they should say so. And while I am on this subject, why wouldn't the test with SP2 and Acceleration? Why don't they all test with the various operating systems that are currently in use. The way I look at it, there are 24 possible combinations of FSX installs and operating systems. 24 beta testers seems pretty reasonable to me. It is not like there is a shortage of people that are willing to test products.

I agree totally with the patch thing-and I have been complaining for years about that. You give developers your email, your credit card etc-save them the expense of a boxed version.- and then a patch comes out and you have absolutely no idea that it is available and find out by accident. Some developers are better than others-but since you give all your vital info at purchase you should at least have the decency of an email and a link when a patch comes out. Since owning an iphone I realize they have come up with the most elegant solution-when an update is available you are informed-you click once-and the update is installed.

Mike-You must not have been around the early days of simming I was around cause I was buying the first add ins from bao/microsoft and the likes way before I even saw any freeware which came out much later well into the 1990's. Frankly, I have never used much freeware at all though I have contributed some myself.However and past flight simming I will state again- there is an increase of enabled ,litigious, lack of personal responsibility, first to complain mentality and it isn't just flight simulation.The internet is a great vehicle for this as the anonymous nature of the experience provides great cover. Meanwhile things like the Red Bull Races will be nevermore due to knee jerk reactions to such.Your story of your experience in the military is exactly what seems to be vanishing today-a code of personal honor.I am not against complaining when warranted and have done so myself many a time.I think the op's post addresses a different kind of complaining. I don't really see any disagreement.

Geofa:I've been an avid simmer since 1985. I bought all of the BAO products and remember PMDG being one of the first payware services selling modified airfiles and aircraft manuals (a bit of history which is why they are called Precision Manual Design Group for the uninitiated.) However I also remember that the first high fidelity 767 prior to their 767 PIC and 767 LDS was a freeware title. This also hold true for the ERJ PIC which has its roots as a high fidelity freeware title. If you search through the Avsim reviews from way back you'll find my reviews of many freeware aicraft and panels from the FS95 and FS98 era. The first Bravo Zulu Award was my request to Avsim because there was no award for freeware titles and that started off as a freeware award. So yeah, I've got a long history with the hobby and with Avsim also. The point was, BAO, PMDG and other's were a small minority whereas freeware was the overwhelming majority. Now its totally the opposite and developers charge for petty products like contrails, runway textures and many products that wouldn't even have made decent freeware! Everyone wants to make a buck for every blade of grass they release for FS.As it were, complaining goes both ways. I tend to see the burden on the consumer to be civil, patient, obedient little shoppers. I rarely see developers being criticized for complaining and if you look at the posts they do a LOT of it. It is not just the general population that is litigious...the business world takes the cake when it comes to that and I should know because I am onsite at Mayer Brown LLP in Chicago and their business is only corporate law. The largest law firms in the world are not civilian law firms but corporate law firms so it is important to but this in perspective.On another note...I think another reason for the complaints is the unusually closed nature of this hobby. The lack of almost any opensource code locks this hobby into having to wait for a select few to release and fix titles rather than the community having the ability to assist in enhancing existing code bases despite having many talented developers who don't release any titles. Hell, you can't even put a bunch of FREEWARE AI traffic files together without the threat of a lawsuit even though the end result is miles better than any payware package available and there are no changes to the code that would take credit away from the original authors!!! If the code was opensource this would not happen. The restrictive nature of even free software defines where it can be uploaded and how it can be used but in a case where Avsim crashed a lot of great work could have been lost forever.This is but one example of things that could be done to further the hobby instead of writing new code every time a new product must be released. If the developers don't want to fix things then put it out in the community and let other's do it: features get added, hobby get's furthered, and the responsibility is spread. The devil finds work for idle hands!

I seem to remember you left avsim in disgust of such at the time-I am glad to see you are back and have followed your wonderful videos from the start!

I didn't leave mate. I have a few posts around here. I'm just a quiet lurker. I'm still firm on my belief, but it seems things changed a bit anyways, so all is well. I've been keeping tabs on you too mate. I was glad to hear you became part of the staff! Congrats, although a bit late!We must fly again sometime :)

Geofa:I've been an avid simmer since 1985. I bought all of the BAO products and remember PMDG being one of the first payware services selling modified airfiles and aircraft manuals (a bit of history which is why they are called Precision Manual Design Group for the uninitiated.) However I also remember that the first 767 prior to their 767 PIC and 767 LDS was a freeware title. And if you search through the Avsim reviews from way back you'll find my reviews many freeware aicraft and panels from the FS95 and FS98 error. The Bravo Zulu Award was my request to Avsim because there was no award for freeware titles and that started off as a freeware award. So yeah, I've got a long history with the hobby and with Avsim also. The point was, BAO, PMDG and other's were a small minority whereas freeware was the overwhelming majority. Now its totally the opposite and developers charge for petty products like contrails, runway textures and many products that wouldn't even have made decent freeware! Is there still a question why attitudes have changed?As it were, complaining goes both ways. I tend to see the onus on the consumer to be civil, patient, obedient little shoppers. I rarely see developers being criticized for complaining and they do a LOT of it. It is not just the population that is litigious...the business world takes the cake when it comes to that and I should know because I am onsite at Mayer Brown LLP in Chicago and their business is only corporate law. The largest law firms in the world are not civilian law firms but corporate law firms so it is important to but this in perspective.On another note...another reason for the complaints is the unusually closed nature of this hobby. The lack of almost any opensource code locks this hobby into having to wait for a select few to release titles rather than the community having the ability to assist in enhancing existing code bases despite having many talented developers who don't release any titles. Hell, you can't even put a bunch of FREEWARE AI traffic files together without the threat of a lawsuit even though the end result is miles better than any payware package available! If the code was freeware this would not happen. The restrictive nature of even free software defines where it can be uploaded and how it can be used but in a case where Avsim crashed a lot of great work could have been lost forever.This is but one example of things that could be done to further the hobby instead of writing new code every time a new product must be released. If the developers don't want to fix things put it out in the community and let other's do it: features get added, hobby get's furthered, and the responsibility is spread.

Ok Mike-I have to ask.When fsx came out you were probably about the biggest complainer around. In fact when I dared to say at the time I enjoyed it you made a comment that I still remember that my wife must be ugly if I could see any redeming qualities in fsx. In fact it was shortly after that comment that Tom asked me to be a mod. So I have to ask-a few months ago I read your post that you had left fs9 for fsx. A lot of people commented on the post asking how you could do it and I never saw a reply-maybe I missed it.Now-the fact is-fsx is what is. It is being used by Lockheed, Redbull -very serious sims.How have you gone from being perhaps the biggest complainer to a user?Is my wife still ugly?Enquiring minds want to know...