Haha, yes a thick skin and a NO BS sign on the support forum door these days. My three level suggestion is a starting point to alleviate the customer confusion somewhat and the unrealistic expectations a whole lot....The difficulty is that even those three levels become subjective in the eyes of those who fail to read and understand clearly.A vendor will have to clearly state the limits of each level and will still be faced with questions such as why don't you add feature ABC like vendor XYZ does in his "intermediate level" Corker 31J56 and by the way if it doesn't have feature ABC you guys suck and I'm never buying it!!!:(

Exactly! I own a certain 757 and the developers bent over backwards to ensure that potential buyers knew what they were buying BEFORE purchasing, to the extent of even making the entire manual available pre- purchase. Care to guess what their forums look like weekly? Apparently reading and comprehension are no longer taught in school as there were never ending posts complaining about 'features' not included, which was as clear as a bell if they had bothered to actually READ before buying.I can understand some confusion if a manual or website info is in english and thats not a persons first language, but thats what forums are for. Ask before buying, not after, then complain it wasn't what you thought it was. Personally I almost always wait until at least a month after a release, even when I trust the developer, and watch the feedback, then make a decision to buy or not. I for one am glad ES takes the route they do. There are many great planes released and in the works that won't get my money regardless of how perfect they are, for one reason, no 2D cockpit. Some devs seem determined to try to force us to use the VC, and I use both, if it don't have both, my money goes somewhere else.

The amount of complaining is directly comparable to the quality of the product. Even though single items of complaints wasn't at all relevant/correct. It's a usefull tool. :)

I'll give you a recent example-Red Bull races cancelled...

I understood the 2011 series was cancelled in order to implement the changes required with regard to the restructuring of the organization and to develop the various commercial areas of the business. This included funding/sponsorship issues in the current economic climate, as well as safety concerns after the two recent incidents.

I understood the 2011 series was cancelled in order to implement the changes required with regard to the restructuring of the organization and to develop the various commercial areas of the business. This included funding/sponsorship issues in the current economic climate, as well as safety concerns after the two recent incidents.

The inside story is the airplane dipping its wing in Detroit brought up the possibility that the plane might have continued into the audience with injury and lawsuit potential.The inside word is there may never be a Red Bull race again due to these concerns.I was at an airshow yesterday-the talk was they may eventually be phased out due to the same.

The inside story is the airplane dipping its wing in Detroit brought up the possibility that the plane might have continued into the audience with injury and lawsuit potential.The inside word is there may never be a Red Bull race again due to these concerns.I was at an airshow yesterday-the talk was they may eventually be phased out due to the same.

So that's over the top, but in general I agree with your sentiment. I have noticed that there are more complaints in general, as opposed to even six years ago. It is constant and it surrounds us everywhere - I get the feeling that people are becoming more unhappy in general. given all the problems of the last years, I can't say I'm surprised. I mean, there are at least three wars raging (all in the same region, by the way), climate change and global warming (which ahs its own consequences for each and every country), economic crisis... You name it and the problem exists. A sceptical view of the world? Yes, yes it is, but I fear its reality.Looking at it this way, there really isn't much to be joyous about. Interpreted differently:Be happy with what you got and fix the rest!

I take the opposite view.Complaining is healthy... much preferred to passive acceptance... it keeps people sharper... forces some people to confront reality should their egos gets too large and they start to detach from reality... And, as they say in the army, when the troops "stop" complaining... that's when the officers begin to worry. It means something is very wrong.

We agree to certain point...consider your own analogy about troops and complaining.If troops constantly complain as opposed to occasionally complain the situation becomes untenable and someone is going to insure that a level of peace and quiet is restored.I'm sure you've heard the old saw about the "squeeky wheel get's the grease" but it should be noted that sometimes the "squeeky wheel" get's removed and replaced with a non "squeeky wheel.

Yes, every new product raises the bar for the quality that i, customer, look for. After buying certain addons i have decided not to fly anywhere else, becouse those sceneries are just that damn good, that everything else is under the bar and plain ugly, or not worth the money i earn. Which leads me to only flying in areas that developer has covered. And about aircrafts, i think flight dynamics is first priority, and eye candy is second. Aircraft graphics quality is IMO allready pushed to the max, that there is not much to improve in that department, but scenery graphics is still way behind, which is ofcourse understandable becouse its a sim and would be impossible to cover it in an incredible detail.. But there is still something to improve, i believe.But yeah, that was my "rant" about what i, simmer, want from addon products and give my money to.

The inside story is the airplane dipping its wing in Detroit brought up the possibility that the plane might have continued into the audience with injury and lawsuit potential.The inside word is there may never be a Red Bull race again due to these concerns.I was at an airshow yesterday-the talk was they may eventually be phased out due to the same.

What's the connection with complaining?

i was gonna reply a couple days ago .. but it took a couple of days to read the the OPs "quick" post  :biggrin:People always complain.. its human nature.  Don t believe for one second that is greater because we are closer to the developer.  Sony, Microsoft, ie gets a ton of consumer complaints.  Go and read the Microsoft forums .. tons of complaints.  This hobby is not any different than other industries.  The only reason it appears that there is more complaining is because you are close to the hobby. You pay attention to the hobby.  If your hobby involved (say adobe products) you would see the same level of complaints with their products.  Why because humans are wired to push for the best, aka complain.

What's the connection with complaining?

It goes imho with a whole package of a way of viewing the world including complaining, enablement, and lack of personal responsibility.

It goes imho with a whole package of a way of viewing the world including complaining, enablement, and lack of personal responsibility.

We shouldn't consider the potential consequences and just wait until an aircraft actually goes into the crowd? The dead would have grounds for complaint but I doubt they'd feel enabled or accept personal responsibility for their deaths.

We shouldn't consider the potential consequences and just wait until an aircraft actually goes into the crowd? The dead would have grounds for complaint but I doubt they'd feel enabled or accept personal responsibility for their deaths.

If you don't want anymore Red Bull Races, or airshows that is exactly the mind set, and I think the day is coming in the near future where in addition to Red Bull being eliminated, airshows will also be.We probably not stop there and should stop airplanes from flying too-because they occasionaly go down , and maybe driving because of the same. Since someone might slip on my sidewalk in the winter and instead of accepting that those things happen, will instead sue me-perhaps I should fence my house off so no one can get to it. Ditto with car races-we have seen accidents that hurt/killed crowd members-we should just eliminate them.The fact is life is risk from the moment you are born. Seems people used to accept that and make the most of it.Now because an airplane in the Detroit Red Bull Races clipped a wing we will lose the races because it has suddenly occured to everyone there is potential for an accident?! Is this truly a revelation?!The people running the show and the audience knew that all along-but the fear of lawsuits now outweighs all. A lack of personal responsibility is slowly deteriorating our quality of life in all areas.If one choices to hang glide, or to drive motorcycles, or to fly, one understands exactly that there are risks. If one chooses to attend the Red Bull Races one also understands their risk factor is higher than sitting on a couch and watching it on tv.If the races are eliminated I think it will be tragic.

If you don't want anymore Red Bull Races, or airshows that is exactly the mind set, and I think the day is coming in the near future where in addition to Red Bull being eliminated, airshows will also be.We probably not stop there and should stop airplanes from flying too-because they occasionaly go down , and maybe driving because of the same. Since someone might slip on my sidewalk in the winter and instead of accepting that those things happen, will instead sue me-perhaps I should fence my house off so no one can get to it. Ditto with car races-we have seen accidents that hurt/killed crowd members-we should just eliminate them.The fact is life is risk from the moment you are born. Seems people used to accept that and make the most of it.

It's a matter of judgement, balancing the risks against the benefits. That's why flying and driving will continue - their benefits are perceived to outweigh the risks.

Now because an airplane in the Detroit Red Bull Races clipped a wing we will lose the races because it has suddenly occured to everyone there is potential for an accident?! Is this truly a revelation?!

At the Farnborough Airshow in 1952 a dh110 broke up while flying directly towards the crowd and killed 27 people and injured over 60. It wasn't a revelation that aircraft crash - people on the ground had been killed at airshows before - but the rules were still changed to forbid aircraft ever again flying directly towards a crowd. On your reasoning, if someone had foreseen that possibility we should just have said life is risky, shrugged our shoulders, done nothing and waited for it to happen?

The people running the show and the audience knew that all along-but the fear of lawsuits now outweighs all. A lack of personal responsibility is slowly deteriorating our quality of life in all areas.If one choices to hang glide, or to drive motorcycles, or to fly, one understands exactly that there are risks. If one chooses to attend the Red Bull Races one also understands their risk factor is higher than sitting on a couch and watching it on tv.

So there should be no safety precautions at all and everyone in the vicinity of the races should just accept any risk? Maybe there should be no safety precautions in motor racing either. We could then have a repeat of Le Mans 1955 when 83 spectators, including children, were killed and more than 120 injured. After all "if one chooses to attend the( Red Bull) Races one also understands their risk factor is higher than sitting on a couch and watching it on tv." How high a the risk factor is acceptable - or should it be unlimited? Also, many there may not have chosen to attend - children, workers, residents etc.

If the races are eliminated I think it will be tragic.

An aircraft flying into the crowd will almost certainly ensure that the races are be eliminated permanently! As I wrote earlier, this is a all a matter of judgement - balancing risk against safety.And finally, it wouldn't be tragic. The recent floods in Pakistan and other natural disasters are tragic.

Mgh-there were safety precautions at Red Bull and no one has been injured as a result of the race. Red Bull will be cancelled because the benefits gained are outweighed by liability should an accident ever happen.As far as arguing further with you I have already learned there is no point, and in this case this is my opinion based on experience. We have been turning slowliy into a world of enabled, litigious, complainers and the quality of life has and will continue to suffer...and yes in the early days of flight simmings you did not see so much complaining.

Geof you are so right - we have the same thing here in our general life where health and safety and human rights legislation are encroaching into our lives to such an extent that if left unchecked in a few years we will be paying criminals to behave and no small business will be able to function because of the weight of assinine laws and pointless legislation. When are people in charge going to realise that you cannot legislate away danger and the possibility of something bad happening. Most people given the choice like some excitement in their life. Getting back to the topic in discussion, its all down to how people are- in my business ( construction) we have all types of customers and you can be sure that every now and then you get a real pain in the **** to deal with. Most however are easy going and reasonable. same in this hobby, most of accept the reality of the OP's argument. there are always a few however who think that they own the developer for their $20 or whatever they paid.Cheers, mark