Killing that is legally sanctioned by an internationally recognized government that is targeted against an identified threat and is not intended to call indiscrimate deaths, is not NECESSARILY "murder" - it totally depends on the circumstances.

The Nuremburg Trials were put a end to theat argument. The ###### Germany was a legally recognised government that identified jews as theat to the Aryan race, And we all know where thst led.

Aah, but that is based on the theory that I simply sit around doing nothing after having eaten the cake, which of course is not true, since my double agent work for Hezbollah, Mossad, the CIA and the Salvation Army keeps me incredibly active. I could tell you more about it, but then I'd have to kill you.Al

You already have killed me! I laughed so hard I fell off my chair onto my "own petard" which proceeded to hoist me! A very uncomfortable position I can assure you... Now of all those secret agencies you serve in your nefarious work as a quadruple agent, the one that really scares me is the Salvation Army. I mean they can do some serious damage to your ear drums with those loud bells of theirs, ringing and ringing outside the mall every Christmas.

Actually, it's the lesser known Salvation Air Force and the Salvation Special Forces you want to worry about, with their laser guided tambourines and Heckler & Koch MP3 Players.Al

Actually, it's the lesser known Salvation Air Force and the Salvation Special Forces you want to worry about, with their laser guided tambourines and Heckler & Koch MP3 Players.Al

:LMAO: Al, you've got to stop doing this to me. My wife is going to start wondering why I keep coming out of my man cave with a silly grin all over my face. I'm supposed to be flight simming in here - serious stuff!

Hello,

I think it's worth noting in regard to another argument put forward, that probably one of the chief reasons characters such as Arthur Harris were not tried as war criminals, is because they were fortunate enough to not find themselves on the losing side at the close of hostilities. It is always up to those on the winning side to determine who is and is not a war criminal and what merits punishment, whereas the vanquished are in no position to lay similar accusations, even if to a neutral observer, they might well be justified in doing so.

Read this:Review‘Michael Burleigh has long been one of our foremost writers on the importance of ethics in history, and in this deeply researched, closely argued and well-written analysis of the moral issues thrown up by the Second World War he has reached the zenith of his career.… Burleigh takes strong stances on almost every controversy of the war…This book is full of poignant nuggets of information…but easily its greatest strength lies in the wise, civilised but unshakeable moral certainty of its author.’ Andrew Roberts, Sunday Telegraph‘Burleigh’s book is infinitely better than the usual tiresome trudge through the battlefields of North Africa or rose-tinted retrospective of the Battle of Britain. More than any book I have read on the war, it confronts us with the ethical questions millions of people faced in their daily lives… Perhaps the most impressive thing about Burleigh’s book is that, unlike so many historians, he has a refreshingly realistic, clear-eyed view of human nature.…One of the strengths of Burleigh’s analysis, however, is that while he is well aware of allied atrocities, he never loses sight of the basic moral difference between the warring parties.… Although Burleigh leaves us in no doubt that the Second World War was a just conflict, he simultaneously leaves us under no illusions about the horrors of modern warfare. This is a book in which heroism is inevitably flawed and tempered; in which the choice is always between two evils.…if we are to avoid repeating such horrors in our own lifetimes, then, as Burleigh’s outstanding book reminds us, some things should never be forgotten.’ Dominic Sandbrook, Sunday Times‘Magnificent…a work of erudition, vast practical knowledge and abundant common sense, beautifully and wittily written, and packed with insight. Even if one has read hundreds of books on the war, one finds Burleigh in this work fulfilling gaps in understanding that in retrospect appear vast…No-one with an interest in the Second World War should be without this book…In a field packed with competitors, Burleigh has written one of the great books on this compelling and endlessly pervasive subject’ Daily Telegraph‘Magisterial…a truly elegant and thought-provoking work…It is a beautifully written commentary on the ugliest aspect of our humanity: intra-species violence’ Literary Review‘No arid re-run of debates…“Moral Combat” deals with morality as something inseparable from life.… Burleigh is a master of significant detail unearthed in microscopic research.… As always the colour and power of Burleigh’s prose is outstanding. When it comes to evoking the smell of a place he is far and away our best history writer.… the bloodiest and most wrenching account of the war I can recall.’ George Walden, ObserverPraise for ‘Blood and Rage’:‘A brilliant book I would urge you all to read.’ David Cameron‘Required reading.’ Peter Clarke, Assistant Commissioner for Anti-Terrorism, Metropolitan Police‘An important book.’ Lord Guthrie, Former Chief of the Defence Staff‘Takes everybody from Fenians and anarchists to the Red Brigades and al-Qaeda, and is written with characteristically biting flair.’ Dominic Sandbrook, Daily Telegraph (Books of the Year)‘Typically excellent…There are few better writers at work today.’ Sunday Times (Books of the Year)‘Burleigh’s evident ability to assimilate and communicate incisively…a highly intelligent and comprehensive survey of recent terrorism.’ Observer‘An outstanding book.’ Daily Telegraph‘Highly recommended.’ Sunday Telegraph‘Magisterial . . . broad in scope, powerful in its argument and brimming with healthy rage.’ Evening StandardPraise for THE THIRD REICH:‘This is writing of the highest order…one can barely envisage a contemporary work of history more lucid, more penetrating or painted onto a broader canvas.’ Financial Times‘Astonishing and awe-inspiring…a breathtaking achievement, at once broader and deeper than any other single volume ever published on the subject…it is the product of authentic historical genius.’ Niall Ferguson, Sunday Times‘This is a monumental book, a tour de force.’ Richard Overy, Sunday Telegraph‘Burleigh calls his work “a new history” and for once that claim is fully justified. An original work in which narrative history, rigorous analytic explanation and unblinking intellectual moral judgement are united with compelling originality.’ Michael Andre Bernstein, Los Angeles Times‘Michael Burleigh has produced a modern classic…this book is a masterwork.’ Washington Times‘His narrative is eminently accessible, the formidable learning lightly worn, the canvas immense…unpretentious and humane.’ TLSProduct DescriptionFrom pre-eminent historian Michael Burleigh comes a brilliant new examination of the Second World War and a magisterial counterpart to his award-winning and bestselling THE THIRD REICH.Literature on the Second World War is voluminous. In Moral Combat, however, Michael Burleigh achieves what few historians can claim to have done; by exploring the moral sentiment of entire societies and their leaders, and how this changed under the impact of total war, he presents readers with an entirely fresh perspective of this conflict.Opening with the 'predators' - Mussolini, a really bad dude, Prince Hirohito of Japan - and moving onto appeasement (a popular policy or a 'wrong' policy?), the rape of Poland, Barbarossa, the role of Churchill, and the Holocaust, Burleigh analyses the moral dimension of the Second World War's most important moments. More than merely a history of 'great men', however, Burleigh also examines the moral reasoning of individuals who had to make choices under circumstances difficult to imagine. Stressing the maxim that the past is used to make sense of the present world we live in, he takes us right up to today's war on terror - a war of competing ideas. What, in the end, will constitute its victory? Burleigh's fascinating and deeply engaging exploration refuses to draw lessons from the past for the future, remaining instead firmly focused on the on-the-spot decisions that came to define the conflict.Original, perceptive and remarkable in scope, this is an unforgettable and hugely important Second World War history.Regards.Gus.

I've done my part , I Downloaded it, wrote an afcad, and sent the planes into the side of a Afgan mountain known to have baddies hiding in the vicinity.ta ta ta ! :Peace:

I'm crying from laughing so hard. This has got to be one of the funniest posts I've ever read here. Only seconded to Bug Splat v3.0

Yup, that one would also get my vote for being one of the funniest posts ever.Al

Hello,

Hello,QuoteI think it's worth noting in regard to another argument put forward, that probably one of the chief reasons characters such as Arthur Harris were not tried as war criminals, is because they were fortunate enough to not find themselves on the losing side at the close of hostilities. It is always up to those on the winning side to determine who is and is not a war criminal and what merits punishment, whereas the vanquished are in no position to lay similar accusations, even if to a neutral observer, they might well be justified in doing so.Read this:Review‘Michael Burleigh has long been one of our foremost writers on the importance of ethics in history, and in this deeply researched, closely argued and well-written analysis of the moral issues thrown up by the Second World War he has reached the zenith of his career.… Burleigh takes strong stances on almost every controversy of the war…This book is full of poignant nuggets of information…but easily its greatest strength lies in the wise, civilised but unshakeable moral certainty of its author.’ Andrew Roberts, Sunday Telegraph‘Burleigh’s book is infinitely better than the usual tiresome trudge through the battlefields of North Africa or rose-tinted retrospective of the Battle of Britain. More than any book I have read on the war, it confronts us with the ethical questions millions of people faced in their daily lives… Perhaps the most impressive thing about Burleigh’s book is that, unlike so many historians, he has a refreshingly realistic, clear-eyed view of human nature.…One of the strengths of Burleigh’s analysis, however, is that while he is well aware of allied atrocities, he never loses sight of the basic moral difference between the warring parties.… Although Burleigh leaves us in no doubt that the Second World War was a just conflict, he simultaneously leaves us under no illusions about the horrors of modern warfare. This is a book in which heroism is inevitably flawed and tempered; in which the choice is always between two evils.…if we are to avoid repeating such horrors in our own lifetimes, then, as Burleigh’s outstanding book reminds us, some things should never be forgotten.’ Dominic Sandbrook, Sunday Times‘Magnificent…a work of erudition, vast practical knowledge and abundant common sense, beautifully and wittily written, and packed with insight. Even if one has read hundreds of books on the war, one finds Burleigh in this work fulfilling gaps in understanding that in retrospect appear vast…No-one with an interest in the Second World War should be without this book…In a field packed with competitors, Burleigh has written one of the great books on this compelling and endlessly pervasive subject’ Daily Telegraph‘Magisterial…a truly elegant and thought-provoking work…It is a beautifully written commentary on the ugliest aspect of our humanity: intra-species violence’ Literary Review‘No arid re-run of debates…“Moral Combat” deals with morality as something inseparable from life.… Burleigh is a master of significant detail unearthed in microscopic research.… As always the colour and power of Burleigh’s prose is outstanding. When it comes to evoking the smell of a place he is far and away our best history writer.… the bloodiest and most wrenching account of the war I can recall.’ George Walden, ObserverPraise for ‘Blood and Rage’:‘A brilliant book I would urge you all to read.’ David Cameron‘Required reading.’ Peter Clarke, Assistant Commissioner for Anti-Terrorism, Metropolitan Police‘An important book.’ Lord Guthrie, Former Chief of the Defence Staff‘Takes everybody from Fenians and anarchists to the Red Brigades and al-Qaeda, and is written with characteristically biting flair.’ Dominic Sandbrook, Daily Telegraph (Books of the Year)‘Typically excellent…There are few better writers at work today.’ Sunday Times (Books of the Year)‘Burleigh’s evident ability to assimilate and communicate incisively…a highly intelligent and comprehensive survey of recent terrorism.’ Observer‘An outstanding book.’ Daily Telegraph‘Highly recommended.’ Sunday Telegraph‘Magisterial . . . broad in scope, powerful in its argument and brimming with healthy rage.’ Evening StandardPraise for THE THIRD REICH:‘This is writing of the highest order…one can barely envisage a contemporary work of history more lucid, more penetrating or painted onto a broader canvas.’ Financial Times‘Astonishing and awe-inspiring…a breathtaking achievement, at once broader and deeper than any other single volume ever published on the subject…it is the product of authentic historical genius.’ Niall Ferguson, Sunday Times‘This is a monumental book, a tour de force.’ Richard Overy, Sunday Telegraph‘Burleigh calls his work “a new history” and for once that claim is fully justified. An original work in which narrative history, rigorous analytic explanation and unblinking intellectual moral judgement are united with compelling originality.’ Michael Andre Bernstein, Los Angeles Times‘Michael Burleigh has produced a modern classic…this book is a masterwork.’ Washington Times‘His narrative is eminently accessible, the formidable learning lightly worn, the canvas immense…unpretentious and humane.’ TLSProduct DescriptionFrom pre-eminent historian Michael Burleigh comes a brilliant new examination of the Second World War and a magisterial counterpart to his award-winning and bestselling THE THIRD REICH.Literature on the Second World War is voluminous. In Moral Combat, however, Michael Burleigh achieves what few historians can claim to have done; by exploring the moral sentiment of entire societies and their leaders, and how this changed under the impact of total war, he presents readers with an entirely fresh perspective of this conflict.Opening with the 'predators' - Mussolini, a really bad dude, Prince Hirohito of Japan - and moving onto appeasement (a popular policy or a 'wrong' policy?), the rape of Poland, Barbarossa, the role of Churchill, and the Holocaust, Burleigh analyses the moral dimension of the Second World War's most important moments. More than merely a history of 'great men', however, Burleigh also examines the moral reasoning of individuals who had to make choices under circumstances difficult to imagine. Stressing the maxim that the past is used to make sense of the present world we live in, he takes us right up to today's war on terror - a war of competing ideas. What, in the end, will constitute its victory? Burleigh's fascinating and deeply engaging exploration refuses to draw lessons from the past for the future, remaining instead firmly focused on the on-the-spot decisions that came to define the conflict.Original, perceptive and remarkable in scope, this is an unforgettable and hugely important Second World War history.Regards.Posted ImageGus.

As the pic describing the book was removed .. I must repost with the tittle for this post make sens ! :Big Grin: Moral Combat by Michael BurleighHarperPress; First Edition edition (29 April 2010) 672 pages English ISBN-10: 0007195761 Read it and comeback comment ....Regards.Gus.

Hello,As the pic describing the book was removed .. I must repost with the tittle for this post make sens ! :Big Grin: Moral Combat by Michael BurleighHarperPress; First Edition edition (29 April 2010) 672 pages English ISBN-10: 0007195761 Read it and comeback comment ....Regards.Gus.

Most books on war are incredibly difficult to read, I think the last two I ever read were "Winds of War" and "War and Remembrance" some decades ago. I don't know if I will ever have time to read Michael Burleigh's book, but I know having a father who was in one tough war that war is simply bad. I have had the luck of traveling in Germany decades ago while many were still living with WW II fresh in their memory. I say luck because as civilians, they were ardent pacifists and never wanted to see their country the cause of so much sorrow ever again. I hope one day my own country finds some other way, other than combat, to solve its issues. I hope the same for all countries, and for some strange reason I cannot put into words, I think that day will actually come. And I think the same will hold true for all faiths that fight each other. Regards,John

Most books on war are incredibly difficult to read, I think the last two I ever read were "Winds of War" and "War and Remembrance" some decades ago. I don't know if I will ever have time to read Michael Burleigh's book, but I know having a father who was in one tough war that war is simply bad. I have had the luck of traveling in Germany decades ago while many were still living with WW II fresh in their memory. I say luck because as civilians, they were ardent pacifists and never wanted to see their country the cause of so much sorrow ever again. I hope one day my own country finds some other way, other than combat, to solve its issues. I hope the same for all countries, and for some strange reason I cannot put into words, I think that day will actually come. And I think the same will hold true for all faiths that fight each other. Regards,John

I hope you are right. Sadly, people seem to be people where ever you go. Look at the military dictatorship of Myanmar. They listen to soothsayers and stargazers. A few years ago they moved the capital inland because they were afraid of a U.S. invasion. As if that would have helped any. Before they took over, the country was the biggest rice producer around. Now they have to import food. When their country was devastated by flood, they refused outside help. Thousands died. In my view, governments don't have to be involved in war to be "immoral". And while a war against tyranny may be the closest thing to a "moral war" there is, it is still only "moral" on one side. Recently, I have read several books on WW ll in the Pacific. Japan's need to take over the Pacific rim was driven by what? Their moral need for more resources? More to it than that, I know. The second half of "First Into Nagasaki"(by a reporter who sneaked into the city within 2 weeks after the bomb) is hundreds of statements by Allied POWs. Heartbreaking to read.I believe tyrants have to go, and if war is how it must be done than so be it, but to claim any morality in that process, well, I'm not sure I can do that. Plenty of folks feel justified in killing some one else.More importantly, next week my wife's bell choir is going to descend on a few unsuspecting Salvation Army ringers and play Christmas Carols. In light of recent revelations in this thread, I hope no international incidents ensue.Bob

I hope you are right. Sadly, people seem to be people where ever you go. Look at the military dictatorship of Myanmar. They listen to soothsayers and stargazers. A few years ago they moved the capital inland because they were afraid of a U.S. invasion. As if that would have helped any. Before they took over, the country was the biggest rice producer around. Now they have to import food. When their country was devastated by flood, they refused outside help. Thousands died. In my view, governments don't have to be involved in war to be "immoral". And while a war against tyranny may be the closest thing to a "moral war" there is, it is still only "moral" on one side. Recently, I have read several books on WW ll in the Pacific. Japan's need to take over the Pacific rim was driven by what? Their moral need for more resources? More to it than that, I know. The second half of "First Into Nagasaki"(by a reporter who sneaked into the city within 2 weeks after the bomb) is hundreds of statements by Allied POWs. Heartbreaking to read.I believe tyrants have to go, and if war is how it must be done than so be it, but to claim any morality in that process, well, I'm not sure I can do that. Plenty of folks feel justified in killing some one else.More importantly, next week my wife's bell choir is going to descend on a few unsuspecting Salvation Army ringers and play Christmas Carols. In light of recent revelations in this thread, I hope no international incidents ensue.Bob

Good reply Bob,I hope the same as well. Maybe one day those claiming sanctity by virtue of their faiths will no longer have to blow themselves up and everyone around them in their vain attempt to prove it. Quite the opposite, the restraint of sharing Christmas Carols or religious songs with anyone is much closer to the demonstration of faith that I feel the God of Abraham intended.Regards,John

I'm crying from laughing so hard. This has got to be one of the funniest posts I've ever read here. Only seconded to Bug Splat v3.0

Yup, that one would also get my vote for being one of the funniest posts ever.Al

:He He: don't get me started you two...... I'll need a new hat!

I understand and fully support that AVSIM is an international community and political differences should not play a role. But I was deeply concerned to see an AI package uploaded recently for the Iranian Revolutionary Guard by "FreightShifters." The IRG is an identified active supporter of international terrorism and the "freight" they are likely to be carrying is going to include materials being distributed to carry out terrorist acts around the world. I don't think it's "politics" to say that this is ethically a questionable thing. I'm totally okay with including Iran and any other country in our international community - the more we foster friendships across political boundaries the better the world will be. But the IRG is a brutal, repressive and violent organization that sponsors the killing and maiming of innocent people. Do we really want that on AVSIM? I hope our editors will give this some serious thought.Ian Scott

Ian,You are completely right. Should we have groups associated with the bringing down of airliners on our computers? I think it makes sense that we get rid of terrorism everywhere, including our computers. Daniel

Ian,You are completely right. Should we have groups associated with the bringing down of airliners on our computers? I think it makes sense that we get rid of terrorism everywhere, including our computers. Daniel

I just scanned my computer but didn't find any terrorist. Can you recommend a good anti-terrorist software package because I'm now really worried there may be a terrorist inside it.

Should we have groups associated with the bringing down of airliners on our computers?

Okay, I'm deleting that model of the USS Vincennes off my scenery, and all my US Navy warplanes too, since they're in that group too.Al