Hello FolksEvery so often I like to fly the old classic airliners.Some of these aircraft are fantastic freeware offerings (California classics).as an example.However!! There is one thing that drives me mad , they will not fly straight and level ,some of these models do have autopilots (some quite simple ones )and some come updated with modern versions (the default DC3 for instance) ,however if I am chugging along at my cruising altitude most of these old timers keep flying with a nose down attitude ,they will sometimes level of briefly ,but resume there nose down progress eventually. Is this how these old aircraft actually flew ? If it is then I can accept 'that's how it was ' if not then I will not be able to enjoy my flights. I hope someone out there has some ideas as I really do like these vintage craft .Andy

Hello FolksEvery so often I like to fly the old classic airliners.Some of these aircraft are fantastic freeware offerings (California classics).as an example.However!! There is one thing that drives me mad , they will not fly straight and level ,some of these models do have autopilots (some quite simple ones )and some come updated with modern versions (the default DC3 for instance) ,however if I am chugging along at my cruising altitude most of these old timers keep flying with a nose down attitude ,they will sometimes level of briefly ,but resume there nose down progress eventually. Is this how these old aircraft actually flew ? If it is then I can accept 'that's how it was ' if not then I will not be able to enjoy my flights. I hope someone out there has some ideas as I really do like these vintage craft .Andy

The angle of attack of the wing at cruising speed should indicate if the attitude of the plane is correct (it should be flat). Does that look right on your aircraft? Is the trim set correctly?

Being something of an old but not very bold pilot, I also love to fly older aircraft but can't say I have experienced the problem you are mentioning. I'm not sure if I fully understand the problem - are you saying they have a nose down attitude in flight or that they will not maintain a given altitude?Any airplane will assume a different nose attitude in level flight depending on angle of attack. The higher your airspeed, the lower the nose attitude will be. But in FS9 it's usually not very noticeable.If the problem is that it won't maintain altitude, then it's probably a trim issue. One of the classics I enjoy is the MAAM DC3 and it is rock solid to fly by hand - just like the real thing. (Yes, I am that old! Though I will say that when I flew a DC3 it was the last of its kind left in passenger service in New Zealand and was phased out of service after I only logged a few hours in the right seat. It's now part of a McDonald's restaurant in Taupo, New Zealand!) (ZK-CAW) Another great classic I fly is Milton Shupe's fantastic Beech 18 - it is also very stable and easy to hand fly in level flight and on auto pilot.

Being something of an old but not very bold pilot, I also love to fly older aircraft but can't say I have experienced the problem you are mentioning. I'm not sure if I fully understand the problem - are you saying they have a nose down attitude in flight or that they will not maintain a given altitude?Any airplane will assume a different nose attitude in level flight depending on angle of attack. The higher your airspeed, the lower the nose attitude will be. But in FS9 it's usually not very noticeable.If the problem is that it won't maintain altitude, then it's probably a trim issue. One of the classics I enjoy is the MAAM DC3 and it is rock solid to fly by hand - just like the real thing. (Yes, I am that old! Though I will say that when I flew a DC3 it was the last of its kind left in passenger service in New Zealand and was phased out of service after I only logged a few hours in the right seat. It's now part of a McDonald's restaurant in Taupo, New Zealand!) (ZK-CAW) Another great classic I fly is Milton Shupe's fantastic Beech 18 - it is also very stable and easy to hand fly in level flight and on auto pilot.

Hi KiwiThanks for your reply. The aircraft have no problem holding the correct altitude, its just that they will fly with the nose pointing downwards ,they will level of from time to time ,but they will then go back to the nose down style.Something else I must mention is the fact that I am a bit of a lazy Vpilot and I use FSNav to control heading ,altitude etc ,I do however try to maintain the correct MAP and prop RPM for cruise flight ,the speed does seem to be correct for the settings I have selected( I am talking here of the California Classics airliners) last night it was the DC6.Raindance did mention speed in his reply ,but I do try to keep to the correct speed as recommended by CCs .As I use a combination of the autopilot and FSNav to fly a plan then the trim I believe is correct as its controlled by the AP.Let me say that all the handfliers out there would probably say 'autopliot bah' ,but I like to relax when I am flying so I do like to simplify things if possible, even so there is a lot more work required than flying modern jetliner's. Maybe I am missing something obvious after all it took me more than hour to get the dc6 engines running in the first place .One thing extra these CCs aircraft have a click-spot that allows you to quickly set take-off trim ,and I was wondering if there might be some problem using AP and FSNav that's affecting trim in level flight.Cheers Andy

A marked nose down attitude in straight and level flight indicates that your airspeed is too great. Check the correct cruise airspeed settings for the model that you are flying.vololiberista

Hi KiwiThanks for your reply. The aircraft have no problem holding the correct altitude, its just that they will fly with the nose pointing downwards ,they will level of from time to time ,but they will then go back to the nose down style.Something else I must mention is the fact that I am a bit of a lazy Vpilot and I use FSNav to control heading ,altitude etc ,I do however try to maintain the correct MAP and prop RPM for cruise flight ,the speed does seem to be correct for the settings I have selected( I am talking here of the California Classics airliners) last night it was the DC6.Raindance did mention speed in his reply ,but I do try to keep to the correct speed as recommended by CCs .As I use a combination of the autopilot and FSNav to fly a plan then the trim I believe is correct as its controlled by the AP.Let me say that all the handfliers out there would probably say 'autopliot bah' ,but I like to relax when I am flying so I do like to simplify things if possible, even so there is a lot more work required than flying modern jetliner's. Maybe I am missing something obvious after all it took me more than hour to get the dc6 engines running in the first place .One thing extra these CCs aircraft have a click-spot that allows you to quickly set take-off trim ,and I was wondering if there might be some problem using AP and FSNav that's affecting trim in level flight.Cheers Andy

If you're using correct MAP and prop RPM and your crusing speed is in the normal range, then an excessive nose-down attitude on AP may well be an FS9 issue like you describe in your last sentence. (I'm assuming you've compared this to same speed/engine settings in level flight flying by hand?) Tom Gibson of CC fame is a frequent visitor to these forums. I bet if you started another thread that would catch his eye, he would help you out. He's very willing to assist people and gives excellent advice on all manner of topics. Put something specific in the topic like CalClassic DC6 Problem or something and he will probably answer youGood luck

Hi!I've been flying Tom's and Greg's models for years and I'm sure there's not much of a problem there.You should read the Propliner Tutorial 2008, also available at the Calclassics site.You'll find the answer as to why the aircraft is pitching down. In resume, you are flying too fast at too low altitude.A propliner is in constant climb until you reach Max altitude for the type. Normally a DC-6 has a ceiling of FL230.You start probably cruise at FL110-120 depending on the route and fuel on board. As you get lighter, your nose starts to pitch down. As it reaches 0 degrees, you can start climbing 2000ft. You'll then be cruising with a nose up a few degrees. As you reach 0 degrees again, start climbing.When you can't climb no more, i.e. FL230, you reduce power. You'll find that the notes for the DC6 by FSAviator mention several power settings for cruise. They are to be used within a defined situation.This is explained in detail on the above mentioned Tutorial.Enjoy your flights Sir and if you fly online on IVAO, you can contact me if you have any problem. :(

The aircraft have no problem holding the correct altitude, its just that they will fly with the nose pointing downwards ,they will level of from time to time ,but they will then go back to the nose down style.Something else I must mention is the fact that I am a bit of a lazy Vpilot and I use FSNav to control heading ,altitude etc ,I do however try to maintain the correct MAP and prop RPM for cruise flight ,the speed does seem to be correct for the settings I have selected( I am talking here of the California Classics airliners) last night it was the DC6.Raindance did mention speed in his reply ,but I do try to keep to the correct speed as recommended by CCs .As I use a combination of the autopilot and FSNav to fly a plan then the trim I believe is correct as its controlled by the AP.Let me say that all the handfliers out there would probably say 'autopliot bah' ,but I like to relax when I am flying so I do like to simplify things if possible, even so there is a lot more work required than flying modern jetliner's. Maybe I am missing something obvious after all it took me more than hour to get the dc6 engines running in the first place .One thing extra these CCs aircraft have a click-spot that allows you to quickly set take-off trim ,and I was wondering if there might be some problem using AP and FSNav that's affecting trim in level flight.

Sorry if this sounds blunt but you are flying your aircraft too fast! The Californian Classics aircraft do not fly nose-down if you fly them realistically. To fly an old propeller airliner accurately as a complex science and the correct MAP/RPM ratio for one altitude/weight will be different at another - this revolves around the BMEP figures. The CC aircraft are accompanied by detailed guides and tutorials which take a bit of reading and absorbing. When you do it right you will almost certainly feel progress frustratingly slow! You can of course choose to fly them as realistically (or not) as you wish, but the info is all there.Best wishes,John

If you're using correct MAP and prop RPM and your crusing speed is in the normal range, then an excessive nose-down attitude on AP may well be an FS9 issue like you describe in your last sentence. (I'm assuming you've compared this to same speed/engine settings in level flight flying by hand?) Tom Gibson of CC fame is a frequent visitor to these forums. I bet if you started another thread that would catch his eye, he would help you out. He's very willing to assist people and gives excellent advice on all manner of topics. Put something specific in the topic like CalClassic DC6 Problem or something and he will probably answer youGood luck

Cheers KiwiIt seems (as other posters have said) that indeed I was flying to fast.I will run these figures past you and see what you think. On my latest flight at a cruising altitude of 17500ft my speed was approx 165 to 175 kts at this speed I was getting straight and level flight.( I found I couldn't use the recommended Econ cruise or any of the recommended cruise power settings)I had to adjust MAP and RPM using my own settings ,employing the listening and looking method if I tried any of the settings laid out I would start to creep up to and past 200kts and with those speeds the nose would again start to dip down.) As far as I can be realistic about these things I do try to get the fuel load and payload weights correct.I know that there is no black and white setting for speed as obviously there are all sorts of other factors(weather ,payload,altitude ,wind direction etc ) but I can say that at 17500ft (I think a mild headwind) 165 -175 kts gave a level flight attitude in the CCs DC6 . I was getting nose down with airspeeds of 210 - 215 230 ishcheers to all of you who have chipped in with info.and cheers to you Kiwi.Andy

To all posters I must apologize ,I know I should read the manuals BUT! I do like to get going. Whenever I take-on a more than usually complex aircraft ,I do find that (particularly if I like them) I tend to absorb the manuals slowly over a period of time as I dip into them to resolve any issues I may be having .Or I resort to brain picking in these forums.cheers Andy

To all posters I must apologize ,I know I should read the manuals BUT! I do like to get going. Whenever I take-on a more than usually complex aircraft ,I do find that (particularly if I like them) I tend to absorb the manuals slowly over a period of time as I dip into them to resolve any issues I may be having .Or I resort to brain picking in these forums.cheers Andy

Don't worry - I am quite sure you aren't alone in cutting corners when it comes to RTFM and the desire to 'kick the tires and light the fires' and just go. That's the beauty of FS - you can do things that would get you fired or killed in the real world and there's nobody to hassle you about it - unless you post on this forum! LOL :Just Kidding:I don't fly the DC6 - I'm addicted to flying in VC as it gives me the illusion of the fluidity of real flight more than a 2D cockpit. So I will leave it to one of the other experts on here who actually have RTFM and can give you good feedback. The best advice I can give is - just keep on having fun! Set the realism bar wherever you want it to be - and then raise it a notch when you're ready for a new challenge. Enjoy!Cheers mateIan

Don't worry - I am quite sure you aren't alone in cutting corners when it comes to RTFM and the desire to 'kick the tires and light the fires' and just go. That's the beauty of FS - you can do things that would get you fired or killed in the real world and there's nobody to hassle you about it - unless you post on this forum! LOL :Just Kidding:I don't fly the DC6 - I'm addicted to flying in VC as it gives me the illusion of the fluidity of real flight more than a 2D cockpit. So I will leave it to one of the other experts on here who actually have RTFM and can give you good feedback. The best advice I can give is - just keep on having fun! Set the realism bar wherever you want it to be - and then raise it a notch when you're ready for a new challenge. Enjoy!Cheers mateIan

IanThe Cal Class Dc6 Does have a VC.Although I seem to getting the hang of cruising speeds, my landing leaves a lot a lot to be desired.After all these years my ILS passenger jet landings and even manual landings are still not always on the ball, but pretty good on the whole ,but trying to land the DC6 after a desperate plunge towards the runway was most entertaining (not for the Vpassengers)though.That's what keeps me coming back to FS though , a good landing whether ILS or hand is so satisfying when managed correctly.Andy

Although I seem to getting the hang of cruising speeds, my landing leaves a lot a lot to be desired.After all these years my ILS passenger jet landings and even manual landings are still not always on the ball, but pretty good on the whole ,but trying to land the DC6 after a desperate plunge towards the runway was most entertaining (not for the Vpassengers)though.That's what keeps me coming back to FS though , a good landing whether ILS or hand is so satisfying when managed correctly.

Just a couple of suggestions that might help a little:I have noticed a quirk (I'll call it that as I doubt it equates with reality) of the CC DC-6 and particularly 6B performance in FS that if you come in on an ILS approach the autopilot sets a huge amount of upward trim to cope. Therefore, if coming in visually, I crank up a lot of trim so that I don't run out of yoke when flaring out at touch-down. The other thing to bear in mind (hope I'm not telling you the obvious here) is that propliners don't land like a jet, i.e. significantly nose-up. So keep your speed up and touch down with the main gear only seconds before the nose.Have fun!JohnPS - I don't think anybody would ever fly as my passengers! I should be confined to cargo work.

Hi all,I think everyone here has solved your problem. If you are flying nose down, then you are either:1. Flying too fast2. Flying too low3. Flying a plane with more power than the original airframe (i.e. a Convair 580).Generally speaking, the procedure is:1. Take off, and follow the handling notes (Reference file in the Kneeboard) until you drop below the specified climb criteria (i.e. a certain airspeed at a specific climb fpm - minimum is usually 500 fpm).2. Level off and go to Econ Cruise.3. Allow your speed to stabilize.4. If you are flying nose down, step climb 2000 ft.5. Repeat 2-4 until you are flying level, or are flying at 25,000 ft. (max ceiling for an aircraft without a passenger oxygen system).6. As your plane burns off fuel and gets lighter, your speed will increase and you will become nose down. Repeat 2-4 in this case.7. If at 25,000 ft and flying nose down, reduce MAP and RPM until flying level. MAP should always be greater than RPM/100.8. Repeat #6 or 7 until ready to descend.Note that on short flights you may never get up to 25,000 ft - in that case flying nose down was typical if required to make schedule times.For more information you might want to check out the Propliner Flying Tutorial:http://www.calclassic.com/tutorials.htmHope this helps,

Hi all,I think everyone here has solved your problem. If you are flying nose down, then you are either:1. Flying too fast2. Flying too low3. Flying a plane with more power than the original airframe (i.e. a Convair 580).Generally speaking, the procedure is:1. Take off, and follow the handling notes (Reference file in the Kneeboard) until you drop below the specified climb criteria (i.e. a certain airspeed at a specific climb fpm - minimum is usually 500 fpm).2. Level off and go to Econ Cruise.3. Allow your speed to stabilize.4. If you are flying nose down, step climb 2000 ft.5. Repeat 2-4 until you are flying level, or are flying at 25,000 ft. (max ceiling for an aircraft without a passenger oxygen system).6. As your plane burns off fuel and gets lighter, your speed will increase and you will become nose down. Repeat 2-4 in this case.7. If at 25,000 ft and flying nose down, reduce MAP and RPM until flying level. MAP should always be greater than RPM/100.8. Repeat #6 or 7 until ready to descend.Note that on short flights you may never get up to 25,000 ft - in that case flying nose down was typical if required to make schedule times.For more information you might want to check out the Propliner Flying Tutorial:http://www.calclassi...m/tutorials.htmHope this helps,

Thanks TomThere is plenty to mull over there. As to the nose down problem ,although its agreed its not a good idea and shows something wrong In VPiloting skills (I simply just don't like the look of it either )its interesting that you say it was actually employed to meet schedule times.though. So if it is correct that some planes seem to fly 'incorrectly' if that's what they REALLY did do occasionally then that makes it fine with me.Thanks Tomcheers Andy

Just a couple of suggestions that might help a little:I have noticed a quirk (I'll call it that as I doubt it equates with reality) of the CC DC-6 and particularly 6B performance in FS that if you come in on an ILS approach the autopilot sets a huge amount of upward trim to cope. Therefore, if coming in visually, I crank up a lot of trim so that I don't run out of yoke when flaring out at touch-down. The other thing to bear in mind (hope I'm not telling you the obvious here) is that propliners don't land like a jet, i.e. significantly nose-up. So keep your speed up and touch down with the main gear only seconds before the nose.Have fun!JohnPS - I don't think anybody would ever fly as my passengers! I should be confined to cargo work.

Thanks John! More useful information there.PSEven cargo would be to scared to fly with me.