Ryan (PMDG) Help (FIX) required please Re. attitude on finals

[Paul Deemer 13]

Guys I got a dumb question here. If they used VREF+10+5 as stated by the OP. Why not just calculate the speeds the way you normally do and then subtract 10 knots? What will happen if you do that? Example VREF for Flaps 30 is 140 kts and there is a 10 knot crosswind with gusts to 15. Half the Wind is 5 and all of the gust is 5 is giving a VREF of 150+5 = 155 - 10 giving you a final VREF of 145 knots. Would that not as a temporary solution without making modifications to the air file? Yeah I know it is not perfect but oh well you can't have everything. Who knows maybe they will change it eventually. Ah I forgot, it wont let you enter a value less than the recommended VREF. Okay using the above example. Why not just forget the +5 correct part. Make it whatever the VREF and Winds are with no +5. Then on Final approach do a manual land at -5 knots from what your VREF plus Winds speed was. That will let you come in 10 knots slower?

[Guest tonyf38]

Hi Paul, No such thing as a dumb question.. I think either one would give you the correct pitch attitudes for final and touchdown.. I've gotten some emails that people are very pleased with the changes I made.. My solution is temporary as well until and if PMDG decides to change it.. Try landing at Key West with the -800 and see if you can get er stopped with flaps 40 without compensating for the Vref.. That's the ultimate test since Delta flies them in there..

[Paul_Smith 92]

Well, why not settle this whole thing and have some inputs from the RL drivers of the 800. Quite frankly, I'm getting a little tired of hearing about what it should be and what it is.....Can some RL's please intervene and give us a 'heads-up' on this seemingly taunting dilemma once and for all???....

The opinions of people on forums who claim to be real world NG pilots are just that, opinions. PMDG have already said that the Real World NG drivers that they have worked with on this project have not reported problems in this area. That does not mean problems do not exist, just that if they do exist, they were not obvious enough or important enough to comment on. I believe that Ryan has also said that they are asking their Real World pilots to have a closer look at this area, both in the sim and in the air. If anything comes of it, I am sure a correction will be forth coming.

[martin-w 3,235]

Martin, how do you know how the real aircraft behaves??

I don't, but I do know that flaring by a couple of degrees [not 4 degrees up as per the manual] and reducing the thrust at twenty feet results in a perfect landing for me.

The people are floating because they are pitching towards the boeing training manual attitudes(not a good idea in the unedited model).

Correct, which is nuts. They should accept that the approach pitch is too low and pitch up in the flare by two degrees [or whatever is required] It's nuts to pitch up to 4 degrees when we know the pitch is too low by two degrees. Two degrees above the horizon in the un patched product as a rule of thumb. But LOOK, use the HUD, keep the flightpath indicator below the horizon line. Don't just mindlessly ignore the fact that the add-on's pitch is too low and pitch up to 4 degrees anyway. I've not had one float, despite the fact that the pitch is slightly out. I'd also recommend that you use mu 0.8 lift_scalar only, not drag etc. Don't mess with PMDG's fine work. Martin Wilby

[LZaman 0]

my 2 cents...I do fly (big) airplanes for a living, not boeing though but that beats the point!and sure, there is a technique described in every flight manual of every type of airplane simply because well you have to explain how to land the thing... it's like the manual for your oven explaining how to turn the power on...Landing an airplane is not a matter of 'pitching up x degrees at yy feet', no, it's a matter of judgement. If you feel your technique is not getting you the right result, change it. Flare a little later, earlier whatever but make sure you are getting what you want and don't start blaming the book for not matching the airplane or vice versa ... it simply does not work that way. Every airplane is different, and i still have to meet 'that' pilot who aces every landing... (because he/she does not exist!) And even if they took the flight data from the unreliable speed data... who cares... you're flying an airplane, not numbers!(seriously we do have reference numbers but far to often have i noticed that trying to chase those numbers caused me to scr*w up my approach... so i don't go by the numbers anymore, sometimes you need more, sometimes you need less....) get experience and learn from it. CheerzLenny

[HighFlyer310 21]

Everyone should take a look at this (8:30) -

These aircraft land flat.. I think everyone should heed the advice of Lenny ^^ This add-on is as close to the real thing as it can get.. I dont think a lot of people are used to that, it is unique, you need to alter your flying to accommodate its characteristics (this is why we have type ratings). I've talked with more than a couple RW -800 captains and they can confirm the airplane lands flat with very little flare.

[Skysurfer7 34]

HighFlyer310 maybe you should look at these videos, all showing 2 deg nose up!

& this

Martin, I do agree with you. Normally if we switch the flight directors off in the real thing with Flaps 30, Vref + 5, as a guide we hold 2 degrees and then make slight adjustments. The attitude on approach is low but what really puts me off the NGX is the touchdown attitude. Hope they can fix the attitude issue.

/Rodd

[martin-w 3,235]

Correct, the videos above show two degrees on approach... and 4 degrees flare. We see in the PMDG NGX, zero degrees approach and two degrees up in the flair. Martin Wilby

[Guest BlueRidgeDx]

I'm tired and cranky, thus I shouldn't be commenting, but I don't understand why so many of you keep banging your head against the wall on this issue. RSR has already said they would dive back into the books to check the behavior. The PMDG team consists of 737-700/800 pilots, mechanics, and simulator technicians. It's not necessary to continue clamoring for more opinions on the matter. How many times do you need to repeat yourselves?Adjust your technique until such time that PMDG tweaks the performance (if it proves necessary).

[G550flyer 1,013]

my 2 cents...I do fly (big) airplanes for a living, not boeing though but that beats the point!and sure, there is a technique described in every flight manual of every type of airplane simply because well you have to explain how to land the thing... it's like the manual for your oven explaining how to turn the power on...Landing an airplane is not a matter of 'pitching up x degrees at yy feet', no, it's a matter of judgement. If you feel your technique is not getting you the right result, change it. Flare a little later, earlier whatever but make sure you are getting what you want and don't start blaming the book for not matching the airplane or vice versa ... it simply does not work that way. Every airplane is different, and i still have to meet 'that' pilot who aces every landing... (because he/she does not exist!) And even if they took the flight data from the unreliable speed data... who cares... you're flying an airplane, not numbers!(seriously we do have reference numbers but far to often have i noticed that trying to chase those numbers caused me to scr*w up my approach... so i don't go by the numbers anymore, sometimes you need more, sometimes you need less....) get experience and learn from it. CheerzLenny

Must be the military back ground I have. I flew light jets, mid size, and heavies during that time. Currently I'm back to flying light jets(Gulfstream). We trained, instructed and evaluated from those manuals. Everything from flight characteristics, air refueling, air-drop, low-level, tactical departures/arrivals through landing procedures were all based on the flight manual and numbers. You haven't lived until you've flown a heavy nap of the earth at 200ft agl or on-loaded 200,000 pounds of fuel at night while tracer rounds came from below...as you concentrate on flying a perfect formation with the tanker. I was initially sick of having to quote regs, numbers and procedures from memory. I thought it was just a harassment program until I finally accepted that if I wanted a flying career, I had better join the team. In the school house we taught procedure, you never teach a student techniques. Everything was per the manual. As an instructor and evaluator, I cared less if a guy pranged one on as long as he was on speed, on glide path, stable, crosswind controlled and in the slot. We always taught pitch, power, and fuel flow when beating up the pattern. A pilot would learn techniques once he made it through initial qual with a Q-1. We flew so many training flights it was crazy. As stated, that's why people will continue to post about it. I will say that after all the different type of aircraft I've flown, The manual has never lead me astray.

[Jen 0]

+1......Roger that. Regards,jen noulet

[Skysurfer7 34]

I tested changing the "lift_scalar = 0.8" tweak in "flaps .0", works well for me, didn't detect any abnormalities with this tweak:-) /Rodd

[martin-w 3,235]

I tested changing the "lift_scalar = 0.8" tweak in "flaps .0", works well for me,

I reckon it hits it spot on. Pitch is good, and flare is good, as per the manuals.

RSR has already said they would dive back into the books to check the behavior. The PMDG team consists of 737-700/800 pilots, mechanics, and simulator technicians. It's not necessary to continue clamoring for more opinions on the matter.

And in regard to why we keep banging on about it, it's probably three fold. 1. People keep disagreeing, so we keep politely replying. 2. We are flight sim enthusiasts, we find this stuff interesting 3. Some are suggesting unnecessary and significant modifications to the cfg, and thus PMDG's excellent flight dynamics. This is a bad idea. The issue is minor and nothing to do with drag. Don't undo PMDG's fine work. Martin Wilby

[tipitout 5]

Everyone should take a look at this (8:30)...These aircraft land flat..

I am not a real-world pilot and do not profess to be an expert. However, to my untrained eye, the pitch attitude in that video at touchdown appears to be around the 5 degrees mark.

[Ponk 51]