NGX exaggerated "floating?"

[jbassue 181]

The aim of PMDG by releasing a so perfect and realistic addon is to teach you how to fly a real 737 not to invent procedures... Even if you don't have microbursts in FS...As Real As It Gets...

I was just joking jeez.But hey, it's up to you if you want to keep the monotoned typing :(

[cmpbellsjc 2,963]

VREF is not an APP speed but the speed at which you have to touch the runway. So considering the speed you loose on flare and the wind you have to add at least 5 kts to your VREF during approach. 5kts less is very dangerous, imagine if you have a micro burst.. Your aircraft will stall and crash

That's right, but I think that something is off somewhere along the lines. If I fly the approach at flaps 30 plus 5 kts more than indicated buy the FMC, the approach will either be flat or nose down. The only way to avoid that and get the right attitude is to fly it slower.Now, someone in one of the other threads suggested making a mod to the aircraft.cfg section that is supposed to correct this. I can say that I HAVE not tried that mod to see if it works, but as it stands now it seems like the VREF speed the FMC indicates is already to fast.Sean Campbell

[NGXfanatic 85]

That's right, but I think that something is off somewhere along the lines. If I fly the approach at flaps 30 plus 5 kts more than indicated buy the FMC, the approach will either be flat or nose down. The only way to avoid that and get the right attitude is to fly it slower. Now, someone in one of the other threads suggested making a mod to the aircraft.cfg section that is supposed to correct this. I can say that I HAVE not tried that mod to see if it works, but as it stands now it seems like the VREF speed the FMC indicates is already to fast. Sean Campbell

I've been following the discussion about the landing attitude on final, and I have noticed that the reason most people are thinking the NGX is approaching and landing with a flat or nose down attitude is because PMDG is using the unreliable speed table (which amounts to vref+10) vs. a normal vref+5 table. Right away, you can see that if VREF+10 is used in the flight model for approach/touchdown, that you just need to compensate by subtracting 5kts from the VREF and adding 5kts for wind to allow for a more realistic attitude on finals, as Sean suggests here. I am not enthusiastic about messing with the aircraft.cfg's drag scalar or any other variables in the flight model for fear that it will mess up the flight envelope for all other situations apart from the approach/landing scenario (you fix one thing, and you end up breaking 20 other things). I feel Sean's idea of just simply subtracting 5 kts from the FMC derived approach speed is the best workaround for the time being.

[martin-w 3,243]

I'm with the crowd saying the floating behaviour and landing attitudes are both not right, but the fix is pretty simple should one choose that route. Reference "drag scalar=0.8" in earlier threads.

No! In the flaps.0 section of the aircraft cfg... lift_scalar = 0.8 Don't touch the drag or anything else. And make sure your approach speed is correct. VREF + 5 There is no issue with floating if your technique is right. If you float it's your fault. Auto thrust off.VREF + 5 [Calculate approach speeds closer to the runway, rather than early and thus inacurate]Power back at 20 feetslight flare. Use the HUD and make it easy, flight path indicator just below the horizon line in the flare. Martin Wilby

[Mossyfly47 18]

its tricky practice makes perfect -slippery she is .....

[Photle 0]

All necroposting today

[Nyxx 6,993]

Just learn to land manually, AT and AP off

At call out 30ft cut the throttle smoothly

10 ft flare carefully .....carefully

Aim for -150 vs

 

No need to edit anything. That's just a crutch. Practice.

[Christopher Low 5,363]

I would have thought that nailing a landing is more about feel and visual cues than checking to make sure that "vs" is a particular number.

[jcomm 5,943]

I came across this post and couldn't avoid posting that indeed I do find ground effect pretty much convincingly modelled in my two PMDGs ( while I wait the 744 v2 ).

 

The 777 has even a bit less than I would expect, so, I ask the OP - do you experience the same "floating" on the 777 ?

 

My only complain regarding the NGX is engine-out flight dynamics... Fail an engine during initial takeoff climb, at max rated thrust, and you'll barely notice it... something that is FAR from what you would experience IRL, and an aspect of the simulation I would really like to see addressed in the future...

 

The same ( engine-out ) behaviour applies to the 777, but I know the real thing uses sophisticated systems to automatically overcome / help the pilots counter the yawing and rolling moments resulting from an after V1 engine cut. Also it's tail and rudders are HUGE, so, probably the way we see it modelled in PMDG's 777 is not that far from the real thing ?

[Mossyfly47 18]

Just learn to land manually, AT and AP off

At call out 30ft cut the throttle smoothly

10 ft flare carefully .....carefully

Aim for -150 vs

 

No need to edit anything. That's just a crutch. Practice.

you can save the approach scenario as LANDING PRACTICE FLARE and if it goes pear shaped load up the plane configured for landing again. If your happy touch and go set flaps 15 throttle up  do a circuit and repeat. If not happy reload......

[Nyxx 6,993]

I would have thought that nailing a landing is more about feel and visual cues than checking to make sure that "vs" is a particular number.

Ofc it is

Ryanair V give you a landing mark/score and it's based on how good your landings is, -150 is a perfect landing to them.

Landing is just what you say, feeling and judging it.

Also with winds you need more that +5 but.......it goes on and on.

[skelsey 765]

(Rant on...)
 

Ryanair V give you a landing mark/score and it's based on how good your landings is, -150 is a perfect landing to them

Which is a ridiculous way of "marking" landings. So if your V/S at touchdown is -150fpm but you land halfway down the runway and go off the end, or stand on the brakes/reversers and come to a smoking halt a couple of feet from the end, no matter -- you got your V/S spot on, so perfect landing? It's nonsense.

Sorry, not having a go at you (I know you didn't make the rules!) but that sort of pointless FDM winds me up -- it achieves nothing except to encourage poor technique.

There are only three criteria that matter when it comes to landing a transport category jet:

- Correct speed
- On centreline
- In the touchdown zone

Everything else is a bonus.

Our lot (BAV) got rid of the "landing rate" marks years ago for precisely this reason: we wanted people to be concentrating on putting it down in the right place rather than aiming for some arbitrary V/S figure that may or may not be accurate because of the limitations of the recording equipment.

The place you should be looking during the flare is out the window at the far end of the runway (CATIII notwithstanding) -- not at your VSI.

Rant over!

[Nyxx 6,993]

- Correct speed

- On centreline

- In the touchdown zone

Well ofc that comes first who suggested other wise?

 

and you get all the above right and if you get the bonus of -150fpm landing =happy days.

 

This topic is about the finer points of landing. It should not be about changing the config it should be about learning to land right and then perfecting your landing. Yes i wish RV did were you land etc all good points.

 

 

 

The place you should be looking during the flare is out the window at the far end of the runway (CATIII notwithstanding) -- not at your VSI

I never know what my VS is untill i look at the report. If I glance at anything its my speed and that's at 30ft, flare is all feel and VS just comes with it and is what it is.

 

Am thinking of joining BAV.

[codechris 9]

I've always struggled with good landings. They are either really floaty are smash down like a hammer. But, one thing I've noticed recently is since I started flying on Vatsim I'm landing a lot better, last night I did my best landing ever. I have been pondering this and I think what's happening is because I'm online I'm really concious of my landing (call it vanity of people watching) and I really don't want to go-around. I'm still getting used to ATC and FS2Crew and I can find it really busy at times to manage everything. One time I was asked to go around and someone was having trouble in front of me and it really was a rush trying to remember the correct voice commands, fly the plane, execute missed approach, change frequencies etc. I got it down second time but wasn't without some errors. So I think I'm putting so much more effort in to my landing I'm doing a lot better. Kinda as if I don't get it down now it's game over.

 

It's just practice I think. Do some circuits, they're are easy to setup, I found a really good video on-line that shows its so simple to setup

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

Our lot (BAV) got rid of the "landing rate" marks years ago for precisely this reason: we wanted people to be concentrating on putting it down in the right place rather than aiming for some arbitrary V/S figure that may or may not be accurate because of the limitations of the recording equipment.

The place you should be looking during the flare is out the window at the far end of the runway (CATIII notwithstanding) -- not at your VSI.

 

Spot on.

 

 

 

Well ofc that comes first who suggested other wise?
 
and you get all the above right and if you get the bonus of -150fpm landing =happy days.

 

The very fact that it's a reported metric (and a celebrated one) in the community really points to it being "otherwise." I think it should be completely hidden from view to the sim crowd, or not collected at all. For a transport category aircraft, the only real value the value has is to ensure you haven't slammed the plane down and damaged the structure, which requires some higher rates.

 

 

I've always struggled with good landings. They are either really floaty are smash down like a hammer. But, one thing I've noticed recently is since I started flying on Vatsim I'm landing a lot better, last night I did my best landing ever.

 

To be honest, I've been flying real planes for over a decade now, and I still have trouble in the sim sometimes. They're still decent landings, but I know for sure I'd be able to pull it off better in the real thing. Comparing the A2A 172 to the 172s I fly, I miss all of the tactile feedback in the sim. Over all of the years of flying, I can feel how much lift I have available in the feel of the controls. When coming in for a landing, you're really trying to put the plane on the ground when the wing stops flying (the small plane full stall landing - not so much the case in transport category, though you do want the minimum amount of lift by being as close to vref as is safe). Being able to feel that lift reserve and the sloppiness of the controls really adds that extra sense that makes the landings that much better. Without it, it's all visual.