I am sure we all wish Roger's father a speedy recovery, and that his father and family will be in our prayers. Family ALWAYS comes first.

This weekend I will update this post with a list of items that we have currently corrected in SP1. It is around 150+ specific items and another 50 or so that are non-specific fixes. (I'll explain what I mean by that in the update.)

As far as SP1 is concerned, 150+ specific items updated/corrected is a significant number, and therefore it is hardly surprising that it should take some time. I am remined of my own father, who during his life, always impressed upon me :-"If it's worth doing a job, it's worth doing it properly" -- and I have tried to follow his advise throughout my own life.

Tomorrow we are kicking what we expect to be the final SP1 and 600/700 beta versions out to the beta team- and then we'll be looking at release dates HOPEFULLY toward the end of the coming week... (20OCT or so...<Standard Disclaimer Applies>)

Just one Suggestion. With so many changes, and the imminent relwase of SP1, why not consider releasing this final beta as a final (unsupported) HOTFIX, so that you can benefit from a far larger testing base. ? If a very high percentage of those testing the Hotfix have no issues, then that would be good news.However, if there is a significant numer who continue to have common issues, then you might want to know this before releasing SP1. PMDG's limited size Beta team can only do so much, why not take advanatge of your large enthustiastic customer base to help with this final push. PLEASE, this is ONLY a Constructive Suggestion, but I am sure I am not the only one wondering this.

/Just one Suggestion. With so many changes, and the imminent relwase of SP1, why not consider releasing this final beta as a final (unsupported) HOTFIX, so that you can benefit from a far larger testing base. ? If a very high percentage of those testing the Hotfix have no issues, then that would be good news.However, if there is a significant numer who continue to have common issues, then you might want to know this before releasing SP1. PMDG's limited size Beta team can only do so much, why not take advanatge of your large enthustiastic customer base to help with this final push. PLEASE, this is ONLY a Constructive Suggestion, but I am sure I am not the only one wondering this.

I guess, because then there would be a lot of faults, since most of them are related to user error, from notso expirenced simmers. Better to have the choised Beta-team looking at it, since they are advanced simmers, with a lot ofknowledge. That was my thought about it. / Leffe

I'm gonna take a shot at this Geoff, I think the reason they won't do this is because some? alot? of users problems are based on user error. I don't know what exact percentage that would be, but i'm sure its there. They would'nt want to be flooded with problems that are not actually NGX problems, so they have their beta team who they know are fully competent with the NGX and its systems and operation, and let them find something wrong. Just my guess, could be wrong.... first time for everything ;)g**dammit Leif, you were like 7 seconds ahead of me. :)

Exactly. User error. That's precisely why. A lot of people don't think it's a big issue, but come work with me for a day. Just yesterday:"Your stupid F5 box isn't working again."Let me see what you did. Ah, yeah, you need to type that part of the code in caps - it's case sensitive."That's not going to change a thing!"Try it, please."Oh, well...that shouldn't have mattered."(In my mind: *yeah, clearly shouldn't have mattered...* - sarcasm if you didn't catch that) Most of the people here know just enough to think they know it all, and that's where user error crops up the most. Filtering through erroneous reports would then become a huge issue. Just be patient.

I'm gonna take a shot at this Geoff, I think the reason they won't do this is because some? alot? of users problems are based on user error. I don't know what exact percentage that would be, but i'm sure its there. They would'nt want to be flooded with problems that are not actually NGX problems, so they have their beta team who they know are fully competent with the NGX and its systems and operation, and let them find something wrong. Just my guess, could be wrong.... first time for everything ;) g**dammit Leif, you were like 7 seconds ahead of me. :)

I can see that. Thats is why it would have to be Unsupported, and optional. At the end of the day, there will be a SP1 release, and there will still be a number of users, with user errors and PC/FSX configuraion errors, that will calling in for support. The only way to reduce those is to make the product more "idiot proof", but after reading some of the posts in this forum, I doubt if anyone could make a product that would meet the required level of being "Idiot proof". "Que Sera Sera"

Perhaps another, larger group (50-100) composed of those who know what they're doing & have known, stable platforms for the testing (not necessarily high-end systems either), but I definitely wouldn't make it completely open.

Exactly. User error. That's precisely why. A lot of people don't think it's a big issue, but come work with me for a day. Just yesterday:"Your stupid F5 box isn't working again."Let me see what you did. Ah, yeah, you need to type that part of the code in caps - it's case sensitive."That's not going to change a thing!"Try it, please."Oh, well...that shouldn't have mattered."(In my mind: *yeah, clearly shouldn't have mattered...* - sarcasm if you didn't catch that)

A GREAT example, that actully supports MY arguement.

you need to type that part of the code in caps - it's case sensitive. "Oh, well...that shouldn't have mattered."

Given that some are going to type in Lower case, ( instead or following instructions to type this input in Caps), it would seem to make sense if the devloper made the input "case Insensitive", and thus totally eliminate any future occurances of the user using the incorrect case. ie Feedback from "average users" with typical "user errors", helping to make the product more "idiot Proof" = less support calls = less expenses = more developer profit. ( not to mention less customer frustration) I guess there is often two sides to every arguement. Agreed, "uninformed" customers can be very frustrating, but can provide an indication of what can be improved, to make a more "user Friendly" product. ( Or at least included in Documentation, to help reduce Support calls).

I am sure we all wish Roger's father a speedy recovery, and that his father and family will be in our prayers. Family ALWAYS comes first.

I also wish Robert's father a speedy recovery. I had not heard about Roger's dad ... is he okay?

A GREAT example, that actully supports MY arguement. Given that some are going to type in Lower case, ( instead or following instructions to type this input in Caps), it would seem to make sense if the devloper made the input "case Insensitive", and thus totally eliminate any future occurances of the user using the incorrect case. ie Feedback from "average users" with typical "user errors", helping to make the product more "idiot Proof" = less support calls = less expenses = more developer profit. ( not to mention less customer frustration) I guess there is often two sides to every arguement. Agreed, "uninformed" customers can be very frustrating, but can provide an indication of what can be improved, to make a more "user Friendly" product. ( Or at least included in Documentation, to help reduce Support calls).

I see your point about user-friendliness, but they aren't developing the original product, where they need to create an original and human-friendly working model. Rather, they're simulating the 737 that Boeing made, so if there's a feature that Boeing made with a particular quirk, PMDG have included those, and the "knowledgeable" testers might flag those as bugs. Instead of releasing the beta to "knowledgeable" (in fact marginally knowledgeable members, at best), they should (and will) release only to those they have vetted to have the proper knowledge of how things should be. If I was developing a website, or an OS, or an original product (not simulating another), I would be 100% in line with your idea. If I making a new version of Excel, or Photoshop, I'd definitely see how a lesser-knowledgeable user interacts with ease or difficulty. In this case, again, they're trying to simulate something that already exists. The quirks and difficulties in the aircraft should be repeated here, which is where the unknowledgeable user test becomes invalid. It wouldn't help at all. And the code I referred to is TCL. There's bound to be a reason some commands are case sensitive, but I never paid attention enough to research why.

I can see that. Thats is why it would have to be Unsupported, and optional. At the end of the day, there will be a SP1 release, and there will still be a number of users, with user errors and PC/FSX configuraion errors, that will calling in for support. The only way to reduce those is to make the product more "idiot proof", but after reading some of the posts in this forum, I doubt if anyone could make a product that would meet the required level of being "Idiot proof". "Que Sera Sera"

That product don´t exist. Remember for FSX there are a lot of mixed people. Such as youngstertrying to learn the ac and also a lot of eldery( I mean real old) people that wanna try the NGX. Many of those however arevery skilled and many are lesser skilled. Then there are those guys in between, in their best age (Uhh what did I now said)... also among them many skilled and many novice. So.... It´s impossibly to satisfy every one in a advanced sim ac. No the only way is to read, fly, learn, read, fly, learn.....and some haven´t that time or passion to learnfrom the beginning....therfore a lot of user error and it must be a bug there and there.Those are more interrested in coming up in the air as quick as possibly I´m afraid. To sad, but´s true. But one good thing, we are trying to help each other on this forum and I hope it always will be like that. / Leffe

I also wish Robert's father a speedy recovery. I had not heard about Roger's dad ... is he okay?

+1

That product don´t exist. Remember for FSX there are a lot of mixed people. Such as youngstertrying to learn the ac and also a lot of eldery( I mean real old) people that wanna try the NGX. Many of those however arevery skilled and many are lesser skilled. Then there are those guys in between, in their best age (Uhh what did I now said)... also among them many skilled and many novice. So.... It´s impossibly to satisfy every one in a advanced sim ac. No the only way is to read, fly, learn, read, fly, learn.....and some haven´t that time or passion to learnfrom the beginning....therfore a lot of user error and it must be a bug there and there.Those are more interrested in coming up in the air as quick as possibly I´m afraid. To sad, but´s true. But one good thing, we are trying to help each other on this forum and I hope it always will be like that. / Leffe

I'm with you Leffe.Despite 54 years of my life and over 20 for Flight Simulator'm learning, always studying and sometimes I learn something new.For those who are having terrible problems, has no solution, I say this because I have no problem with the NGX, quite the contrary gives me many hours of pleasure.My hardware is not what we might call the last generation, but is very well maintained, do not like cracked software, already passed that phase to install everything that appears in my FSX.I confess I am anxious, but not by SP1 but by NGX 600/700. João Alfredo Original in Portuguese/BrazilTranslated by Google Estou com voce Leffe.Apesar dos meus 54 anos de vida e mais de 20 de Flight Simulator estou aprendendo, sempre estudando e as vezes aprendo algo novo.Para aqueles que estão tendo aqueles problemas terriveis, não tem solução, digo isso porque não tenho problema algum com o NGX, muito pelo contrario me proporciona muitas horas de prazer.Meu hardware não é o que pode chamar de ultima geração, mas é muito bem cuidado, não gosto de programas crackeados, ja passei daquela fase de instalar tudo o que aparece no meu FSX.Confesso que estou ancioso, mas não por um SP1 mas pelo NGX 600/700. João Alfredo