That's the issue, they are not contracting to a distributor, else they would be paying them directly for their services.. They are distributing to resellers, taking themselves out of the loop, in which the resellers will sell to the public at whatever the market will bear! Do you really think a commercial company would agree to render their services for cost?

Of course the FAA is contacting with it distributors - they have signed contacts.How many times is it necessary to repeat the fact that Chart Agents are NOT allowed to sell at whatever the market will bear as you falsely claim?

FAA distributes through Chart Agents who are not allowed to sell charts for more than FAA's list price

FAA's agreements with its Chart Agents require them not to sell at more than the FAA's list price

Of course contractors expect to make a profit. Why shouldn't they in this case?

Just to put things in perspective, you can already buy a DVD with the entire digital terminal procedures database for the US and its territories for $12-15--direct from AeroNav or from a chart agent. And since these procedures are not (and cannot be) copyrighted, there's nothing to stop anyone from buying one of those DVDs and hosting it on a website.

Except (if) Aeronav decides they want to put something in the contract that says you cant do this. Granted there wouldn't be a copyright violation, there would be a break in the agreement and they would stop selling you the DVD. It's this concept that DOES have me worried. Aeronav has to know this as well. They are making such a huge deal of this, I find it hard to believe they haven't thought this concept through like you or I have. If they decide to charge a ridiculous amount to digital distribution agents, and the agents then just buy the DVD from sportys or whatever. Then they are getting no money whatsoever, except the one copy they sell to sportys. But all in all, I agree that this probably wont be a big deal at all. It's why I'm not springing from hotel and airfare to Washington DC for their meeting. Regarding the distributor pricing: With a paper chart, it's simple for the FAA to say, "Dont sell for more than X dollars. That's simple, it's an actual physical product you put a price tag on. But how do you do that with digital data? One of the apps I sell charges X amount of dollars for unlimited downloads of terminal procedures for the 28-day cycle you pay for. Another app I sell charges more for the app up front, and the terminal procedure updates have been free. One of my apps charges X amount for a specific sectional or terminal, other apps charge a much larger amount for unlimited access to a Skyvector style chart. Who is charging what for what? I'm not sure how they can possibly regulate the price at all because there are so many different pricing schemes already in place.

Agreed that there are details to be finalised in relation to on-line sales. But a pricing model can will be found - others distributing software over the internet have found solutions and the FAA will.

Except (if) Aeronav decides they want to put something in the contract that says you cant do this. Granted there wouldn't be a copyright violation, there would be a break in the agreement and they would stop selling you the DVD.It's this concept that DOES have me worried. Aeronav has to know this as well. They are making such a huge deal of this, I find it hard to believe they haven't thought this concept through like you or I have. If they decide to charge a ridiculous amount to digital distribution agents, and the agents then just buy the DVD from sportys or whatever. Then they are getting no money whatsoever, except the one copy they sell to sportys.

I suspect that what's really behind this is Aeronav wanting to divest from the expense of providing bandwidth, maintaining servers, retail point of sale systems, customer service etc, as well as indemnifying themselves from liability were somebody to hack into their servers, alter some IAPs, and effectively "shoot down" an aircraft by causing it to fly into a cumulogranite cloud somewhere.

Well then more power to them. Now, there shouldn't be a need for putting the data online at all since we can all just buy the DVDs. So that should make costs go down right? LOL we'll see.

I suspect that what's really behind this is Aeronav wanting to divest from the expense of providing bandwidth, maintaining servers, retail point of sale systems, customer service etc, as well as indemnifying themselves from liability were somebody to hack into their servers, alter some IAPs, and effectively "shoot down" an aircraft by causing it to fly into a cumulogranite cloud somewhere.

Problem is that all still held in a database somewhere and most likely will have a connection to the outside world which will still be able to be hacked into. They should just farm it out to the private sector that has it's act together and focus on making new procedures and maintaining the current ones.

This is good news!

Reports that the FAA would begin charging for digital downloads and close the navigational products website to individuals have stirred an outcry from pilots and fostered a White House petition in opposition. But an FAA spokesman said the agency already charges for downloads, and that the site will remain open to individual users. “What you paid for before, you [still] have to pay for,” he said. “It doesn’t change anything in that regard. That’s where one of the misconceptions is coming in–that we’re somehow trying to make a profit, or charging more.” According to the FAA spokesman, the only thing that is changing is that digital distributors must have contracts with the agency to ensure the accuracy of the product. “The reasons for these contracts go directly toward safety,” he said. Only companies that have distribution contracts with theFAA’s Aeronav division for navigation and chart apps will be affected, and they have been invited to a meeting December 13 in Washington, D.C., to hear details. The new system is set to take effect on April 5, 2012.

Except (if) Aeronav decides they want to put something in the contract that says you cant do this. Granted there wouldn't be a copyright violation, there would be a break in the agreement and they would stop selling you the DVD.

1) Doubtfull they'd be able to track the hosted files back to its original purchaser.2) You can't restrict distribution of a work you have no copyrights to, the contract would be void on its face.I don't believe they will care if some individual hosts the files on a server somewhere.They would just be treated by the FAA as a unlicensed source who's accuracy is not be trusted.Regards.Ernie.

US Government and agency's publications are not copright but unauthorised use of Federal logos is a criminal offence: 18 U.S.C. § 709 : US Code - Section 709: False advertising or misuse of names to indicate Federal agency. Also there's a need to ensure that out-of-date charts or not distributed for obvious reasons.The FAA's position on this is:

All products published by the FAA are public domain and not copyright protected. While it is legal to reproduce and publish official FAA charts, you may not under any circumstance show the FAA logo or any other FAA endorsement of any sort anywhere on your product. The FAA cannot endorse a private industry product or service. Since all of our products are date sensitive, we strongly recommend that you seek legal advice and stipulate that these charts are not to be used for actual flight navigation in the event that someone decides to use a non-FAA reproduced publication for that purpose.

http://www.faa.gov/a...eronav/faq/#q2j

To clarify these are two separate things.Copyright, and Trademark. The FAA has no copyright on what it publishes, but it has a trademark on its logo.One does not supercede the other. I.e. they can't use trademark infringement as a way to prevent copying of its publications.If the FAA sticks their logo on a publication it can be copied logo and all.The FAA is saying the distributer cannot use its logo on their 'product' (or in this case web site). This does not apply to copies of FAA publications that may be included in the product.Regards.Ernie.

The FAA is saying the distributer cannot use its logo on their 'product' (or in this case web site). This does not apply to copies of FAA publications that may be included in the product

The FAA statement begins All products published by the FAA... That's what it is referring to later when it uses the words your product. Why do you think it means website? Nothing is said about the means of distribution - it doesn't have to be via the net.

The FAA statement begins All products published by the FAA... That's what it is referring to later when it uses the words your product. Why do you think it means website? Nothing is said about the means of distribution - it doesn't have to be via the net.

'Your product' is not the FAA chart by itself. Your product may 'include' the FAA chart. Example: a book on IFR flying, that includes examples of FAA charts.The book would be the 'your product' the FAA is referring to.>Why do you think it means website? Nothing is said about the means of distribution - >it doesn't have to be via the net. That was just a reference to the context of the discussion, the source of whichwas Bob's comment about buying the DvD and hosting it on a website.But nonetheless a copyright wise a website is no different than a book or a software program.Regards.Ernie.

'Your product' is not the FAA chart by itself. Your product may 'include' the FAA chart.Example: a book on IFR flying, that includes examples of FAA charts.The book would be the 'your product' the FAA is referring to.>Why do you think it means website? Nothing is said about the means of distribution ->it doesn't have to be via the net.That was just a reference to the context of the discussion, the source of whichwas Bob's comment about buying the DvD and hosting it on a website.But nonetheless a copyright wise a website is no different than a book or a software program.Regards.Ernie.

I think you are over complicating it. In this context your product can mean a copy of an FAA chart on its own.There are also other applicable laws - such as those on "passing-off". FAA releases the authorised, authentic, genuine charts (pick which you like) either directly or through its approved Chart Agents. It therefore has control over their quality. It has no control over copies published by others - they could be poor quality, out of date etc. These other laws give FAA the right to prevent its logo appearing on such charts and giving a misleading impression that they are endorsed or approved by the FAA. In view of the safety implication, that's surely a valid point?

I think you are over complicating it. In this context your product can mean a copy of an FAA chart on its own.

See the beginning of quote you posted from the FAA again."All products published by the FAA are public domain.."How can it be 'your' product when it is already public domain ?

There are also other applicable laws - such as those on "passing-off". FAA releases the authorised, authentic, genuine charts (pick which you like) either directly or through its approved Chart Agents. It therefore has control over their quality.It has no control over copies published by others - they could be poor quality, out of date etc. These other laws give FAA the right to prevent its logo appearing on such charts and giving a misleading impression that they are endorsed or approved by the FAA. In view of the safety implication, that's surely a valid point?

It may seem valid from a safety standpoint.But irrelevent, you cannot prevent copying of a document in the public domain.Regards.Ernie.

See the beginning of quote you posted from the FAA again."All products published by the FAA are public domain.."How can it be 'your' product when it is already public domain ?It may seem valid from a safety standpoint.But irrelevent, you cannot prevent copying of a document in the public domain.Regards.Ernie.

No one is suggesting that a copyright document cannot be copied. But the copy can't be passed-off as being approved by the FAA.