FAA says no more free charts online in 2012. Should we haord?

[n4gix 4,947]

You should take the trouble to read and understand the Freedom of Information Act before relying on it. Section 4 A (vi) of that Act reads...

You should take the trouble to read and understand what he wrote... Once again, you've completely IGNORED his argument.It's really quite simple. Quote the relevant section where it allows any government agency to restrict access to a "select few"

[mgh 89]

His argument was:

They are going to distribute to a commercial reseller which will pay the FAA the direct cost fee, then they will turn around and resell it to the public for a profit. There is nothing in the FOIA that permits this, pure and simple.

I answered that by pointing out there is something in the Freedom of Information Act that permits that.Your argument is;

It's really quite simple. Quote the relevant section where it allows any government agency to restrict access to a "select few".

Where is the restriction in the FAA arranging for charts to be distributed throught its Chart Agents rather than directly by itself. Where is it stated that Chart Agents won't sell to individuals?The FAA is authorised to do this:

(e) Contracts, Cooperative Agreements, Grants, and Other Agreements.—(1) Contracts.— The Administrator is authorized to contract with qualified organizations for the performance of any part of the authorized functions of the Office of Aeronautical Charting and Cartography when the Administrator deems such procedure to be in the public interest and will not compromise public safety.

[tf51d 284]

His argument was:I answered that by pointing out there is something in the Freedom of Information Act that permits that.Your argument is;Where is the restriction in the FAA arranging for charts to be distributed throught its Chart Agents rather than directly by itself. Where is it stated that Chart Agents won't sell to individuals?The FAA is authorised to do this:

What are you quoting from? Here's a link to the actual text of the FOIA is here from the justice department.http://www.justice.gov/oip/foia_updates/Vol_XVII_4/page2.htmShow me where in the context of the law as written itself, does it even remotely allow limitation of distribution?

[mgh 89]

What are you quoting from? Here's a link to the actual text of the FOIA is here from the justice department.http://www.justice.g...VII_4/page2.htmShow me where in the context of the law as written itself, does it even remotely allow limitation of distribution?

All the FAA is proposing is that in future charts would be made available through Chart Agents rather than directly by the FAA. Where's the limitation there?As I said originally, the Freedom of Information Act is irrelevant. If you were to make a FOIA request for a chart under the proposed system, the FAA would, quite properly, direct you to a Chart Agent to buy it. It would then have carried out any duty under the FOIA which is, as the first line reads "Each agency shall make available to the public information..." It would have made it available.

[tf51d 284]

All the FAA is proposing is that in future charts would be made available through Chart Agents rather than directly by the FAA. Where's the limitation there?As I said originally, the Freedom of Information Act is irrelevant. If you were to make a FOIA request for a chart under the proposed system, the FAA would, quite properly, direct you to a Chart Agent to buy it. It would then have carried out any duty under the FOIA which is, as the first line reads "Each agency shall make available to the public information..." It would have made it available.

Oh, they already are available per the FOIA via their Aeronav service,. The issue is they want to limit further access to commercial resellers, how is that making it available to the public, at direct costs only as the FOIA requires?

[mgh 89]

Oh, they already are available per the FOIA via their Aeronav service,. The issue is they want to limit further access to commercial resellers, how is that making it available to the public, at direct costs only as the FOIA requires?

Charts will still be available to the public through Chart Agents so there is no question of them not being available to the public.The Freedom of Information Act does not require charts to made available to the public at direct costs only. They can be provided at the price established by the Administrator of the FAA.The FAA is entitled by statute to charge fees:

TITLE 49 > SUBTITLE VII > PART A > subpart iii > CHAPTER 447 > § 44721§ 44721. Aeronautical charts and related products and services (g) Sale and Dissemination of Aeronautical Products.—(1) In general.— Aeronautical products created or maintained under the authority of this section shall be sold at prices established annually by the Administrator consistent with the following:...

http://www.law.corne...21----000-.htmlSection (4)(A)(vi) of the Freedom of Information Act reads:

The Freedom of Information Act5 U.S.C. § 552, As Amended ByPublic Law No. 104-231, 110 Stat. 3048(vi) Nothing in this subparagraph shall supersede fees chargeable under a statute specifically providing for setting the level of fees for particular types of records.

http://www.justice.g...VII_4/page2.htmTherefore because the FAA's fees are chargeable under a statute, the pricing requirements in the FOIA don't apply to them or to any other government publications where there is a statutory right to charge fees. They can continue to be sold at the fees determined by the FAA.

[tf51d 284]

Charts will still be available to the public through Chart Agents so there is no question of them not being available to the public.The Freedom of Information Act does not require charts to made available to the public at direct costs only. They can be provided at the price established by the Administrator of the FAA.The FAA is entitled by statute to charge fees:http://www.law.corne...21----000-.htmlSection (4)(A)(vi) of the Freedom of Information Act reads:http://www.justice.g...VII_4/page2.htmTherefore because the FAA's fees are chargeable under a statute, the pricing requirements in the FOIA don't apply to them or to any other government publications where there is a statutory right to charge fees. They can continue to be sold at the fees determined by the FAA.

...and if you read that statute closer you'll note(2) Fees.— The Administrator shall assess a fee for any special service provided under paragraph (1). A fee shall be not more than the actual or estimated full cost of the service. A fee may be reduced or waived for research organizations, educational organizations, or non-profit organizations, when the Administrator determines that reduction or waiver of the fee is in the best interest of the Government by furthering public safety. (A) Maximum price.— Subject to subparagraph (:(, the price of an aeronautical product sold to the public shall be not more than necessary to recover all costs attributable to: (i) data base management and processing; (ii) compilation; (iii) printing or other types of reproduction; and <a name="g_1_A_iv"> (iv) dissemination of the product.

[NoahBryant 26]

But it depends on how they work the numbers. Are they going to say everything from the rent they pay for the facility, the printing costs, the salaries they pay their staff, the company that plows their parking lot etc etc etc is part of those costs? They could try. You can't manage data without an IT staff right? You cant compile data without a staff of compilers. Maybe it will float, maybe not.If that's the case then a lot of us are out of the digital chart business because there aren't THAT many digital content providers out there, and the majority of us have already set fees in place considering the very cheap price we pay for the data now, and customers who are accustomed to those fees. I doubt many people are going to pay a whole lot. But then.... since they already make a great deal of money from the paper charts, and will continue to do so, the additional fees of burning the PDFs to disks, and scanning the VFRs and en routes is really minuscule and we're all worried about nothing. Granted they still wont distribute to individuals, how many of us actually get our charts directly from the aeronav site? Not many I think. Other sites such as myairplane etc make it easier, not to mention the pilots who use their iPads etc for it. Personally, I'm not incredibly worried about this, and won't waste much energy on it until after Dec. 13 when I at least have an idea what they're thinking about.

[mgh 89]

tf51d: Do you agree that it's the FAA that determines the prices of charts, not the Freedom of Information Act?Section (2) relates to (f) Special Services and Products so isn't relevant to charts. The, ungarbled version of your quote is:

(g) Sale and Dissemination of Aeronautical Products.—(1) In general.— Aeronautical products created or maintained under the authority of this section shall be sold at prices established annually by the Administrator consistent with the following: (A) Maximum price.— Subject to subparagraph (B}, the price of an aeronautical product sold to the public shall be not more than necessary to recover all costs attributable to:(i) data base management and processing;(ii) compilation;(iii) printing or other types of reproduction; and(iv) dissemination of the product.

That does allow the costs of dissemination (distribution) to be included in the fees. If the FAA decides it's better value to contract this out then it can do so. Many businesses do contract out distribution/delivery services for that reason rather than doing it themselves. Why shouldn't the FAA do the same to seek good value?

[tf51d 284]

tf51d: Do you agree that it's the FAA that determines the prices of charts, not the Freedom of Information Act?Section (2) relates to (f) Special Services and Products so isn't relevant to charts. The, ungarbled version of your quote is:That does allow the costs of dissemination (distribution) to be included in the fees. If the FAA decides it's better value to contract this out then it can do so. Many businesses do contract out distribution/delivery services for that reason rather than doing it themselves. Why shouldn't the FAA do the same to seek good value?

I agree that what you posted is line with the conditions of the FOIA! Distribution to the public, at no more then actual direct costs. The issue is what they want to do now. They no longer want to distribute to the public but only to authorized commercial resellers, at direct costs. With the FAA no longer in the loop those resellers, will be able to resell them to the public, at whatever they want to charge, this is what's not permitted in the FOIA, or the statute you quoted. Note the lineSubject to subparagraph (B}, the price of an aeronautical product sold to the public shall be not more than necessary to recover all costs attributable to:

[mgh 89]

I agree that what you posted is line with the conditions of the FOIA! Distribution to the public, at no more then actual direct costs. The issue is what they want to do now. They no longer want to distribute to the public but only to authorized commercial resellers, at direct costs. With the FAA no longer in the loop those resellers, will be able to resell them to the public, at whatever they want to charge, this is what's not permitted in the FOIA, or the statute you quoted. Note the lineSubject to subparagraph (B}, the price of an aeronautical product sold to the public shall be not more than necessary to recover all costs attributable to:

Again, you show that you do not understand the position.FAA distributes through Chart Agents who are not allowed to sell charts for more than FAA's list price. Some Chart Agents even sell at less than the FAA's list price! Chart Agents can do this because they buy their charts at a discount - the level of which depends on their returns policy.You also have your own definition of costs which you seem to think should exclude profit. Do you think that the FAA buys the electricity for its servers or or the paper for its charts without its suppliers including their profit? There is no difference between FAA conteracting with those suppliers and contracting with others to distribute the charts - they are both straightforward commercial transactions.Also, yet, again, the Freedom of Information Act is irrelevant here. The FAA creates and distributes its charts under its own statute not the FOIA. The FAA was distributiing and charging for charts long efore the FOIA.

[scott967 62]

I assume they use this authority from Air 21:(1) CONTRACTS.—The Administrator is authorized to contractwith qualified organizations for the performance of anypart of the authorized functions of the Office of AeronauticalCharting and Cartography when the Administrator deems suchprocedure to be in the public interest and will not compromisepublic safety.Since "dissemination" is an enumerated "authorized function" I would read this as allowing for dissemination contracts, with a proviso that the fee to an end user cannot exceed the maximum fee set by FAA.scott s..

[mgh 89]

Yes, the FAA doesn't have to do everything in-house if it can get better value by contracting it out. That seems obvious. The FAA's agreements with its Chart Agents require them not to sell at more than the FAA's list price.

[tf51d 284]

Yes, the FAA doesn't have to do everything in-house if it can get better value by contracting it out. That seems obvious. The FAA's agreements with its Chart Agents require them not to sell at more than the FAA's list price.

That's the issue, they are not contracting to a distributor, else they would be paying them directly for their services.. They are distributing to resellers, taking themselves out of the loop, in which the resellers will sell to the public at whatever the market will bear! Do you really think a commercial company would agree to render their services for cost?

[Bob Scott 7,720]

Just to put things in perspective, you can already buy a DVD with the entire digital terminal procedures database for the US and its territories for $12-15--direct from AeroNav or from a chart agent. And since these procedures are not (and cannot be) copyrighted, there's nothing to stop anyone from buying one of those DVDs and hosting it on a website. I think that some sort of coop arrangement would be possible for a small fee, where someone buys the DVD and hosts the data on a server for subscribers.The devil is in the details, which are as yet unknown. But I suspect this will turn out to be something of a nothingburger except maybe for members of the "I'm entitled to everything for free" crowd, for whom paying $20 a year justifies literally hundreds of hours of pointless whining and b*tching.Maybe it'd be a good idea to wait and see what the deal really is before we go postal (?) Just sayin'