My thoughts after purchasing XP10

[h2egc 32]

We ALL know that XPX is far from being perfect and it's not a MSFS title.I would love to see some of things that are offered in the MSFS series incorporated into XP also, but I do know since V.7 things have gotten way better as time progresses.This is a HUGE feat considering the size of LM. XPlane is not TRYING to be a MSFS title, MortenM in a post above explains WHAT XP is.What irks me and other people who PREFER this sim are the statements that go to far, you either like something or not, and if you purchased the Sim and you DON'T like like what you see you have no one to blame but yourself.And as MM has stated, even a moderator is fanning the flames.Everything posted seems to be turned into a war.

[JasonHarris 96]

Longranger and MortenM make some interesting points and I can only agree with a lot that you say Longranger. I see a lot of advertising for xplane of a quality that leads me to believe it is a finished product at a price that matches. I have received it via email pushes as well as on various fightsim online shops. LR don't need to advertise to their existing customer base so this is squarely at new users of xplane. If they cannot be honest to new users then how can we expect people to not come in and have a bit of a rant. I sure as hell did when cliffs of dover was released and did not work on a large percentage of computers. It pushed them to get things going. A kick in the backside was well deserved. If LR get a kick in the pants because their advertising attracted a lot of people in to something they thought was more finished then LR can look at themselves and ask why this happened. Not to long ago, a similar argument appeared and the owner of x-aviation.com said, yes, it's a beta and this is how LR work, it's what to expect from them and things will get better. I asked him why he runs a website that sells x-plane and doesn't tell people before they buy it, why does his website advertise it like it is a finished retail product. He is the admin and can change the wording? He said I had a fair point. Looking his website today it has not changed because what the veteran x-plane guys know of x-plane is not the first impression you want to convey when selling the product. So the description is not changed. Someone will buy it and then possibly join a forum just to rant. Wo is possibly more wrong in this situation?

[JasonHarris 96]

What irks me and other people who PREFER this sim are the statements that go to far, you either like something or not, and if you purchased the Sim and you DON'T like like what you see you have no one to blame but yourself.

I must admit to getting a bit lost here as I am not sure what you mean. I assume you mean geoffa here but I am not sure what went to far? I see him a lot like myself, I like x-plane but there are some things missing for me. I am not loyal to x-plane and I don't mind saying what I think is missing or should be improved. How has xplane improved over the years if those things are not pointed out? Do you just keep quiet and hope LR are thinking what you are thinking? Your remark kind of implies that if you like x-plane there should be some obligation to not point out the bad parts?

[h2egc 32]

Jason,Being a long time user since Version 5, I understand what your saying WE (past XP Users) know what to expect.But I don't see ANYWHERE on X-Aviation or even X-Planes Main Site about it being a so called "finished" product. Everything that has been said from LM about XPX has been out for almost a year as they have been developing. What they have listed as being new for this version is true.Maybe you got or saw something I didn't!@JasonI'm not saying saying things should not be pointed out, but they should be pointed out without the MSFS overtones.

[JasonHarris 96]

Jason,Being a long time user since Version 5, I understand what your saying WE (past XP Users) know what to expect.But I don't see ANYWHERE on X-Aviation or even X-Planes Main Site about it being a so called "finished" product. Everything that has been said from LM about XPX has been out for almost a year as they have been developing. What they have listed as being new for this version is true.Maybe you got or saw something I didn't!@JasonI'm not saying saying things should not be pointed out, but they should be pointed out without the MSFS overtones.

For me it's the exact opposite, if it's selling for $80 and it does not say it's beta then it is finished. This is how I expect everyone to view it unless you are an existing xplane user. I repeat that the advertising LR employ is not to attract the existing xplane user base who may know how LR works. With respect I think you have it the wrong way around. Ask anyone about purchasing a piece of software and they don't expect it to be beta unless it specifically says 'finished' I am just about to go in to the rfactor2 'open beta' which is stated very clearly just like every other open beta program I have joined, xplane being the exception.

[m_av 0]

I don't see ANYWHERE on X-Aviation or even X-Planes Main Site about it being a so called "finished" product.

Are you serious ? Let me just exagerate a bit to make my point clearer.Would you buy a prescription drug from a local pharmacy as an "unfinished" product ? This argument in defence of a bad practice doesn't make sense !Defend X-plane, by all means, but don't ignore the shortcomings or criticism as trivial or unimportant.

[h2egc 32]

I have NOT ignored the shortcomings, however I know what to expect.I do agree that LM should explain better for new users what to expect, but I was a New User once and I followed some of the forums to learn more about XPlane before I made my purchase.@Jason,Thanks for the Heads-Up, I raced for a few years awhile ago, I didn't know that rFactor was still going strong.

[JasonHarris 96]

rFactor still seems to be going strong but I have raced in iRacing the last few years. Best online public racing. Everyone has high hopes for rf2 and the beta should start in the next few days with luck and go on for around 6 months.

[h2egc 32]

I'll have to keep my eye out, thanks!

[m_av 0]

Whether a feature or capability is desirable by some and not by others, is beside the point. If one wants to settle for less, that's his/her buisness.BUT DON"T EXPECT EVERYONE ELSE TO FALL IN LINE WITH YOU !Speak for yourself or on behalf of others who may agree with you; BUT YOU DON'T SPEAK FOR ME - EVER - AND MANY OTHERS LIKE ME, WHO CHOOSE TO EXPECT A BETTER EXPERIENCE IN A SOFTWARE PRODUCT THAN IS CURRENTLY OFFERED WITH X-plane v10.The issue with X-plane v10, as with many previous versions of X-plane, is the casual attitude, the lack of attention to detail and lack of a more thorough testing process before an update or even a version is released - as is the case today with X-plane v10. They hide behind the frequent updates to fix something that may or may not be broken to fix, add, modify or improve a feature that they thought X-plane needed, ending up making it worse, useless and/or ultimately deleting that feature in some cases! It appears as if many updates contain new feature(s) as if they were done almost on a whim !THE LACK OF DISCIPLINE AND IMMATURITY ASTOUNDS ME - when you consider that Laminar is deliberately, purposefully and intentionally bent on belittling, insulting or abusing Microsoft, who have produced fairly complete wholesome experiences from their FS products, MORE OFTEN THAN NOT, IF NOT MOST OF THE TIME, for hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of users over some 3 decades now.Case in point, although more like a PR stupidity :http://www.x-plane.c...res/49_sim.htmlThis was barely 2 years ago !Not only is it insulting and abusive to M$ but insulting to the many FS enthusiasts, but most of all, reflects on the utter immaturity of Austin Meyer, head of Laminar Research.

[h2egc 32]

Go back to your cave M_AV, your insulting enough!If You have a problem with LM, contact Austin!

[Alan_A 1,650]

Only on the second page of this thread so sorry if this is out of line with where the thread is pages down.. I use the warthog, its great , very precise and I could only image how twitchy it would be as stock. I have an extender on it and I feel it makes it so much more precise again. You should look at doing something like this if possible, I hear adaptors can be bought at garden suppliers or plumbers etc.

Sorry, am just coming back to this thread myself, so apologies if my reply is late... and also seems off topic given the rest of the discussion.That's a nice setup - I'll have to look into the extenders. Though if I did that, I'd probably have to change the physical location of the stick. Right now it's sitting on one of those Joyloc trays that bolt onto the desk, and an extender would make the stick itself too high to reach. So I'd have to relocate it and come up with some other kind of mount.But the more I experiment with sensitivity settings, the more satisfying the current setup becomes. Part of the challenge, I'm finding, is that different aircraft seem to want different settings. I tried out the default Stinson per Larry Adamson's recommendation - it's really very good, but seems to do best with sensitivity and stability at default (sliders full left). So does the Carenado Bonanza. The Dreamfoil helos need a lot of stability enhancement. The BK117 doesn't - but it likes a fully non-linear sensitivity setting. The new Dawson MD-902 gets uncontrollable with non-linear sensitivity - it wants a linear curve and maybe just a bit of stability.I understand from a previous thread that it's possible to export preference files for particular aircraft, and I think I'm going to have to learn how to do that. I understand also from that thread that Laminar might consider building in a feature that made it easier to save different joystick setups for different aircraft. I'd welcome that if it was made available.I have to say I'm enjoying all this fine-tuning, by the way. It seems to be part of the X-Plane journey, so might as well have some fun with it.

[h2egc 32]

@Alan,Glad your enjoying your new venture, I once had a VA totally dedicated to A2A's Piper Cub, but found the flight experience for me was better in XP.Happy Flying!

[GoranM 3,772]

m_av, why are you hiding? Afraid of the backlash?You're such a big talker when you're hiding behind a username, but from what I remember in another post, you're an x plane 3rd party scenery developer, and it seems you're just too gutless to fess up and give us your real name and list the scenery you have developed. Tells me a lot about you.

[Alan_A 1,650]

I'm just sticking my head up in the crossfire - which I know can be a dangerous move, but I'm not looking for a fight, I'm fresh from a different fight in a different forum and I don't have much of an appetite for more... ah, as I was saying, I'm just sticking my head up to say that I've learned a lot from this particular thread. Morten's post in particular was really valuable in giving me, as a newcomer to X-Plane, a better way to understand the X-Plane culture and what's different about it. I like the engineering bent and the fact that the community jumps in to fix and improve things. There was a time way back when MSFS was like that (I'm thinking long in the past, back to Flightshop and other Bruce Artwick creations) but it hasn't been for a while. So thanks for pointing all that out.Something else that's clear - and that also became obvious in past FS fights, like the one over FSX when it first came out - is that there are so many different subcultures in any flightsim community, and their needs and assumptions are all so different that it's not surprisng that people misunderstand each other and get crosswise with each other. For example - those who are real, active pilots may not need as much atmosphere from the flightsim program - they can fill in the blanks with their own experience. Somebody like me who isn't a real-world pilot doesn't have those resources to draw on, so I have to look to the sim for all the sights and sounds that take you away from your desk and put you in the cockpit (in other words, I miss my seasons... but I understand why others might not). And, obviously, the heavy metal guys want different things than the GA flyers. I remember (does anyone else?) the arguments that happened when FS9 came out and, because of a late programming decision, it was missing most of the major bridges. There were complaints, then there were counter-complaints ("it's a flight simulator, not a bridge simulator!") Then there were the VFR pilots who pointed out that bridges are important reporting points, and it was a problem that the bridges had been left out... at least for them. The tube drivers couldn't have cared less...A couple of lifetimes ago - 1989, in fact - I started one of the first publications about flight simulation. It's long gone, if you're curious. But one of the things I remember about it was doing an interview with "Wild Bill" Stealy, Sid Meier's partner in Microprose. At one point he was explaining his development philosophy for the Microprose flightsimes (like F-19 Stealth Fighter) and he said that he felt his users didn't want to learn to fly the airplane - they wanted to have the experience of being the pilot. So the planes in Microprose sims were very easy to fly, but the decision-making process (for example, strategy and tactics in a stealth fighter) was very complex and challenging. It was a kind of bias and it wasn't for everybody but it was a legitimate approach to programming and they were pretty successful with it.Similar things are probably true here - there are different biases and needs, not only between FSX and X-Plane users, but also among the users within each community.Maybe the more we can be clear about that, the less chance of bloodshed. Maybe. It's a goal, anyway.My $.02.