Don't subject unsuspecting customers thru a beta process with a shoddy, buggy, unpolished, incomplete product just because you didn't manage your financial affairs properly ! A POOR EXCUSE IF I EVER SAW ONE.

Well, to be frank: A flight simulator today is so complex, that it is simply impossible to make one without a very long Beta phase, if you call it this way or not, or how would you call the time between FSX and its Accelerator pack? To many opposing demands. Some people only want to fly around their known vicinity, while othwer want to fly long distance with complerxity aircrafts.And you can't compare our current situation to the past. As long as X-Plane existed, there was always the bugger and better Microsoft Flight Simulator. It was imnpossible to compete with this behemoth directly so they had to find their own niche market.But then Microdoft dropped the gun, when they disbanded the old team...

Xplane will never be something as polished as fsx, it's made by a team of a few people, even if i'm sure Austin want xplane to sell he's more playing and having fun with it rather than doing marketing and return on investissement analysis.That's how xplane is, a great sandbox, with lots of things missing, no eye candy interface, and a crazy boss writing in caps lock.So don't expect the kind of things you would have for granted in something as professional as fsx.That's sad in a way, sure, i would also like to have the things that are missing in Xplane, and for sure there are things missing, no doubt on that.But there's also benefits, the laminar team is having fun doing xplane, they're not working only for the money, they like their sim, and are always working to improve it.You can email the lead dev and have answers from him , have a chat on skype, they are active on forums, they took active members of the community to work with them on xp10 (alpilotX, cameron ...). Don't expect that from a standard game industry company.There's also a nice community with a lot of focus on freeware, that's really something i like, i'm not really a fan of all those big paywares around fsx, sure payware are nice, but it's become something too overwhelming around fsx imo.So XPlane has its flaws , sure, but if you spend some time on it you should find some ways to have fun with it.If not, use other sim you like, they are just piece of software, not things worth losing time on endless flame wars on forums.

As long as X-Plane existed, there was always the bugger and better Microsoft Flight Simulator.

True.When I first got X-plane - it was version 5, I believe, I was so impressed with it's smoothness and fluidity, I won't speak for the FM, I don't have enough experience to make a decent judgement on that. It was on a Pentium 3 with a 16MB video card ! I sent an email to Austin for coming out with such a wonderful product, worthy of being called a FS with a different emphasis (from that of MS FS), albeit, with a flat world and hardly any scenery. I became an X-plane addict !FWIW, I spend more time on X-plane than all other sims combined. I spend more time developing for X-plane than flying X-plane.It is the lack and the pace of progress considering the potential it has that bothers me about X-plane and like many X-plane enthusiasts, yes, I do call myself an X-plane enthusiast, considering the amount of time I spend on it, I get impatient and less tolerant of Laminar's antiques.We, the users, have to hold Laminar's feet to the fire and not let Laminar hide behind the frequent updates as a means to fixing bugs that shouldn't have been there in the first place, in a product put up for sale.IT IS UPTO LAMINAR TO LIVE UPTO IT'S OWN HYPE.If you notice, in most of my posts, I refrain from comparing X-plane to MS FS. I know these are different products. But there are many brands in a product type and ultimamtely, each brand has to deliver a full, complete, finished, mainly bug-free product and resulting in a satisfying experience for the user. Like cars, cell phones, etc. YOU HAVE TO DELIVER A FULL EXPERIENCE ! Biggest bang for the buck is where it counts, most of the time.

Don't subject unsuspecting customers thru a beta process with a shoddy, buggy, unpolished, incomplete product just because you didn't manage your financial affairs properly !

Give me a break. Yes, X-Plane 10 is still technically a beta and a work in progress at the moment, and, yes, it has some outstanding bugs, but it is a gross exaggeration to claim that it is "shoddy, buggy, unpolished, [and] incomplete". For my money, it offers a complete and functional flight simulation experience that just works with minimal problems, and with Laminar's dedication, it's only going to get better. Furthermore, Laminar cares greatly for their product and their customers to the point that they will work closely with individuals to help track down bugs and solve problems. I, for example, have been working with one of the developers over the last couple of weeks to track down the cause of an obscure bug that is affecting only a small handful of users. When's the last time you've seen that kind of one-on-one attention from a major developer?Go away, Microsoft ######, these forums were getting along just fine without you.

IT IS UPTO LAMINAR TO LIVE UPTO IT'S OWN HYPE..

Exactly. And that's the challenge that they never had. There is nothing that speaks against them to have fun with their work, but they made a hype around their own product. IMHO there is now also a much bigger risk involved. There is no longer only a comminity of enthusiasts, but there are other companies involved. I would think that they start to feel the pressure already.IMHO there are at the moment two big problems that they have to cope with:1. Improve the AI planes, nut only in features but in resource consumption:2. Tools that allow the community to add their own landmarks and building classifications as easily as possible.The problems in their flight dynamics are a nuisance, but obviously you can work around it. I would probably change the C172 too, since this is the standard plane of FSX. They should really put more emphasis on smaller planes that are easy to fly. People must have fun to fly around. The super complex planes will take time to develop anyway and many developers will in reality wait till the smoke clears.You have to see what Microsoft delivers and how X-Plane X comes around.I already decided that I will give both plattforms a chance, when I decided that I will no longer buy additional FSX sceneries and aircrafts.IMHO they have a running chance to get a bigger part of the market, since I am quite certain that Microsoft Flight will have its own problems.It is simply to early to make a decision right now. A few months after the release of Microsoft Flight we will know the result. But I wouldn't be so quick to judge with a look at the number of devwelopers involved. A bigger team will always cause more administration, which takes time and causes bad compromises. How often do you need a singel change to improve your part of the program significantly. If you are allowed to talk to the other guy directly you often get a good result but if it goes to management you can't hope for such an easy solution and you might get a "solution" that doesn't help you in any way, since the managers don't know exactly what they are talking about.

So Ryan, you fly FSX with no addon-aircraft and scenery just default everything, Like MOST FSX users! Right!

Of course not. But I bought FSX at one point for a value similar to the XPX RTM version. Heck I tried the FSX demo before I bought it. Yeah, I played the demo, then BOUGHT the game. Does XPX have serious potential to please new users? Yes. Maybe the next patch. I guess what I'm saying is build a solid demo and people will probably buy the game. And regarding belaboring the point... it wasn't my thread to start hehe...

+1Your so right Benny, but this is what people are doing, just makes no sense.

Sorry I disagree... XPX comes to us five+ years after FSX. Silly me for expecting a bit more out of the box.

 

Go away, Microsoft ######, these forums were getting along just fine without you.

You were doing so well, until you typed this.Maybe the new marketing slogan for X-Plane could be "Don't educate, just eradicate!"?Imagine someone comes in with a (possibly) biased opinion or they are so set in their Microsoft ways. Presents an opportunity to give the X-Plane manner of working, doesn't it? The person inquiring can accept that difference or not. And they might post something stupid when they leave. People do things like that and it's not limited to computer gaming software. Or the inquirer can be squashed like the little bug that they are, what with being a Windows user and using Flight Simulator.These incidents involving X-Plane users and Flight Simulator users remind me so much of serious, real-life issues. Someone posted here about a week ago about having to "retaliate" against the FSX infidels (my term). Really? Retaliate because of what someone types on a keyboard about a computer game?I come here (in peace!) because I want to evaluate and keep track of any developmental possibilities with XPX. I hope I'm not exposed for what I am, a life-long user of Microsoft's product(s). I'm hoping I can make my business decision based upon education and not someone feeling I need to be retaliated against and subjected to eradication.

@meshman,To tell you the truth, it gets frustrating after a while. It's human nature, no one likes to defend the same principles every single day. I agree that users with valid arguments deserve to be treated with respect. Unfortunately, those are are few and far between.

You were doing so well, until you typed this.Maybe the new marketing slogan for X-Plane could be "Don't educate, just eradicate!"?Imagine someone comes in with a (possibly) biased opinion or they are so set in their Microsoft ways. Presents an opportunity to give the X-Plane manner of working, doesn't it? The person inquiring can accept that difference or not. And they might post something stupid when they leave. People do things like that and it's not limited to computer gaming software. Or the inquirer can be squashed like the little bug that they are, what with being a Windows user and using Flight Simulator.These incidents involving X-Plane users and Flight Simulator users remind me so much of serious, real-life issues. Someone posted here about a week ago about having to "retaliate" against the FSX infidels (my term). Really? Retaliate because of what someone types on a keyboard about a computer game?I come here (in peace!) because I want to evaluate and keep track of any developmental possibilities with XPX. I hope I'm not exposed for what I am, a life-long user of Microsoft's product(s). I'm hoping I can make my business decision based upon education and not someone feeling I need to be retaliated against and subjected to eradication.

HelloIf Xplane users were really so confident that their sim of choice is superior, they would not get so upset about negative comments.The anger shown to anyone who raises any issues with XP10 speaks volumes.

That's how xplane is, a great sandbox, with lots of things missing, no eye candy interface, and a crazy boss writing in caps lock.

Lol... I've enjoyed reading Austin's humerous updates and blogs for the past 12+ years. HAR! ;)

May I suggest opening a RANT section in these forums where we can put all these endless destructive topicsso that the creative and constructive ones left can have some peace ENJOYING our hobby without being accusedof who-knows-what just because one happens to like a sim the majority doesn't?M

I'm a real-world pilot with experience flying only in the Cessna 172 R and SP models. I've flown about 9 different N-numbers in the R and SP models. I haven't flown anything else. I actually think the default C172 flight model is okay, but only after you adjust the sensitivity of your controls. I'm using the Saitek Flight Yoke & CH Rudder Pedals for my setup. I agree that it could be a little better in some areas. The plane doesn't seem to want to leave the runway as quickly as it does in real life. I do need to check on the weight & balance settings though. I bet it is too light for my actual flying conditions. I'm 6'5" and close to 300 lbs. I'm willing to bet that the default weight and balance is for a 170 lb pilot or something -- even so, the aircraft seems to stick to the runway longer than it should. I start rotating at 55 kts in real life and the aircraft nose comes up right away -- with the default C172, it tends to stick to the runway a lot longer. My only other major complaint is that engine response time is far too slow. I believe this can be adjusted easily in plane maker. I'll have to try that.

Oh, I agree completely - it's the best controller I've used, and I think I've used most of them except for the highest-end yokes such as the PFC offerings. It's just that I had to spend some time tuning it for X-Plane to get a decent response. The controller chain is pretty complex - I'm sure the CPU itself makes a difference in how the signals are processed - so my issues and settings may not apply to your setup at all.

Only on the second page of this thread so sorry if this is out of line with where the thread is pages down.. I use the warthog, its great , very precise and I could only image how twitchy it would be as stock. I have an extender on it and I feel it makes it so much more precise again. You should look at doing something like this if possible, I hear adaptors can be bought at garden suppliers or plumbers etc.

WOW Jason,very nice set up!! :(

it is a gross exaggeration to claim that it is "shoddy, buggy, unpolished, [and] incomplete"

Scratch the word "shoddy" out of m_av's discription of XP10, and you have an entirely accurate description. It had/has bugs and glitches which have led to 7 patch/update releases in its month of existance with more undoubtedly to come. (*kudos to Laminar for being very aggressive against these!) It does not have the polish of its simulator peers, a point to which most XPlane users will agree. It is incomplete and in need of further work, both on the part of the Laminar and their customers, as admitted and in part planned by developers.Shoddy would indicate that little care was placed into the product - I think we can all agree that lots of love and attention was and is being put into the product. Unfortunately somebody somewhere thought that it had enjoyed enough love and attention and was ready to go. For some current and potential XPlane users, that was the day they were long looking forward to. For others it became apparent that after all the hype and self-promotion, it was a day that simply came too soon.Most, if not all of us who are making continued efforts to discuss the shortcomings of XP10 are NOT doing it to antagonize the community. GAWSHDARNIT we want to BUY it! We want XP10 to rise to its potential! We want to enjoy using it! But we can't, because it falls short in areas that are important to us.I'm a scenery guy who puts a high value on the representation of the world around me in the sim. The state of affairs there is pretty well documented by now. Others are flight model and sim-heads who don't feel like they should have to buy a 3rd party airplane to experience the advertised superiority of how XP re-creates the magic of flight. Still others are generalists, who take a step back, see the bigger picture, and shake their heads at the missed opportunities. ALL of us see the good in what XP10 brings to the table... nevermind good, industry leading! (*that night environment is just stunning!) We just hope, wish, and pine for a product which isn't overshadowed by the feeling of "not quite done".Here's to hoping...