Hi,I fly real life FAR 135 charter in piston twins, CE421. Never had any 121 airline experience. I was intriged by the post on minimum fuel requirements a while down the stack here at the forums. Our alternate requirements obviously concern weather, a slight variation of the 123 rule. However as part of airline policy, obviously it is ultamitly up to the captain, but if the weather is good do you guys usually have an alternate. I am not saying "file" an alternate but perhaps allway carry enough fuel to get their and then for 45 minutes thereafter? In my personal flying, even if the weather is good and the airport only has one runway(2) I always have enough fuel to get to another airport plus reserve in case someone gears up right before I get there or something. In cases where there are other good airports very close to the destination I do not. I can probably imagine all airline pilots would have an alternate plus reserve flying to a destination like Alice springs(YBAS) regardless of weather right? So in that case regardless of weather you would have enough fuel+contig+alternate(150nm)+45 min+taxi. This is quite a bit of extra fuel but if the runway was disabled at YBAS you would be screwed.Since you guys are many times very weight limited, and if it was a real issue on a flight to YBAS as example, would you guys scrap payload or make a stop just to carry that alternate fuel in very good weather? You could use the example of any other single runway airport with no other usable airport w/n at least 150 or greater nm. Tahiti NTAA is another good one.Thanks

Edited February 11, 201214 yr by denver69

Disclaimer: I am not a pilot.Now, with no experience, I would forego fuel that is unnecessary if weather enroute and at the destination is good. Now if the weather is going to crud, carry more fuel.I'd take that the payload/fuel/weather are planned to the nearest possible decimal point by dispatch/operations. In a last ditch effort, cargo could be pulled and put on a later flight. Better than canceling a flight or kicking passengers off the plane.Or you can do what FedEx does and fly from Memphis to Honolulu and continue on to Sydney on their MD-11. But that's got to be near empty to cross the country and half the Pacific.Enough rambling. We now continue our originally planned programming.

I can tell you that unlike FAA, JAA/EASA rules mandate a destination alternate for every flightplan, regardless of conditions at destination.Now for what to do if you are weight limited... That is a tricky one. Best bet is usually it boils down to what is cheapest to the airline, a fuel stop or pulling cargo/pax. I guess a good dispatcher will be able to strech the range by a bit with a good use of creative in-flight re-planning, eg. plan for a refuel point as far along the route as it lets you, then try and save some gas, beg for directs etc. and see if fuel before TOD would let you continue to original DEST and ALTN.

I don't think I've ever seen a release with no alternates at my current airline even when none is required. I've seen two when only one was required. I guess the corporate culture errs on the safe side.

At my airline we are often dispatched without alternates when the weather conditions permit. In that case the dispatcher is required to add a certain amount of holding fuel. The minimum amount of holding fuel varies for each destination. It is based on the historical delays at that airport, the number of and distance of suitable runways that we could divert to plus a few other factors.it's also common to have an alternate listed when none is required, it all depends on which dispatcher is working your flight.

I've never departed with out an alternate unless i was going to a remote or island destination. Even then, we carried extra holding fuel in lieu of an alternate. We plan for alternates regardless of weather outside of the U.S. I love having options. I've been in situations in which i had low fuel and no other options. It sucked bad.

If we’re talking about US carriers who fly under FAR part 121- Alternate for the destination is Not always required! Marc was right, we use 1-2-3 rule, but that is domestic rule. For flag (international) flights we use a bit different rule but alternate may Not be required as well. Alsol flag flights exceeding 6 hours require an alternate for the destination, regardless of how wonderful the weather may be. If flight is less than 6 hrs we dispatch a flight w/out an alternate weather permitting. No problem at all. In those cases when flight is going to an airport with a single RWY, unlighted RWY, we can add contingency alternate but us still not mandatory, it depends on company policy and that is between CA and dispatcher. What we usually do is just calculate fuel burn for possible contingency alternate and make sure that contingency and extra (if any) is enough to divert. But in this case crew doesn’t have much fuel to play with. They have to either land or hold just a little bit or divert right away, because not much holding fuel. You may say - What’s the point of doing this, sounds a bit crazy”. Well, payload. You may not have a room for your alternate. Fuel prices are high as well and big people who rule the company do their best to cut fuel down. We have many exemptions to avoid listing an alternate. That is a whole another animal. Some folks say - I put an alternate in anyway. Well. If you go to an airport with good weather, no crazy NOTAMs and stuff like that, and captain still requests an alternate, he may want to expect guests very soon. Management will tell him he drains company money and fuel with no reason. If he cannot fly w/out an alternate, probably he may not be a part of the airline. The will hire someone else, with more experience who isn’t scare to fly with no alternate. The same thing with dispatchers. Fuel is tracked very seriously. As for payload. Sometimes it is a tough call. We have number 1 rule- carry all payload. People buy tickets and they really want to go, no matter how. They don’t care about weight restrictions. If I bump a pax, I receive a call right away, with question – why? YBAS airport. If we cannot carry all payload we usually do a fuel stop, but that’s not always the case. If there are no good alternate within reasonable fuel range, payload may be cut to accommodate an alternate. Not much you can do. If we are bumping too may pax, we may build a charter flight to bring all pax to the destination. I am not trying to say we do not file alternates here. Yes, we do, but we check all possible options if we can dispatch flight safely w/out alternate and then we put one, or two.

Speedbird144,Thanks, excactly what I was looking for. In real life I tend to operate that way as well. Payload usually permits an alternate regardless of weather, then I have one. If payload restricts fuel, rarely but sometimes does and one is required, it may mean a fual stop. If its on the line an enroute fuel calc using the infamouse E6b will usually yield good fuel to go on to destination but in these cases I have another on file from the enroute point of refuel just in case. As far as the sim goes, I try to make it as real as possible to major airline flying and not the generally fuel fat flying I get to do in the real world. I love gas and in a 421 it really does not cost much to carry extra like it does in a 737. It is funny that in the sim, when standing at the fuel island with the nozzle in my hand fueling my 737, I NEVER get that inkling to put in a few more for the kids. Ahh and then a few more for the wife. Ahh and while I am at it a few more for the inlaws. Ahh and then a few more in case the sun does not rise that day. But in real life these things cross my mind. Not only do I watch to much TV but I read to many minimum fuel stories as well.

I hear you. I like to deal with 737-800, it is a dog. Sometimes it seems to me it can take more than it actually can J. As for additional fuel load or precautionary alternate it is always a battle. If CA is requesting more gas or an alternate which is not technically required we have to ask him/her some stupid questions why he/she is looking for it. I don’t mind to put an alternate but our hands are tight with regulations and we have to follow them. Another example is when TAF is calling for thunderstorm. Ceiling and visibility may be pretty good but I am not comfortable to let folks go with just a holding fuel, of course I put an alternate. No joke with thunderstorm or tornado. Worst case I protect extra gas to make sure they will be able to divert. I like and respect pilots, sometimes they do unrealistic things flying through nasty weather with echo tops up to 60K and making through the only small gap or land CAT III in contaminated RWYs with freaking winds. Glad passengers don’t see what pilots have to deal with, otherwise they would pee’d…It is a very long story and sometimes you have to cry out lots of tears to generate a good flight release to make everybody were happy.In FSX I try to stay as close as possible to real life. What’s the fun to fly with unlimited fuel and payload?

Well put Ed!My company (who fly 737-800's to YBAS) plan alternates (DPA/DPD/DP1) when: i) the TAF is TEMPO/INTER or consistently below minima, and or, ii) the sector is >xxxx nautical miles, and or iii) the company issues a direction to.Consider the following examples:YPAD to YBAS - if the TAF is CAVOK for YBAS, no alternates will be planned, and only the standard fuel load will be uplifted. Review the link I have posted at the bottom of this post. I would post company specifics, but I don't think I should do so in the public domain. Basically, this flight will only contain Flight/Trip Fuel, Approach Fuel, Fixed Fuel Reserve, Variable Fuel Reserve and Taxi Fuel, plus any extras for holding (ATC) or an allowance.YPAD to YBAS - The TAF is TEMPO, INTER or consistently rubbish for YBAS - alternate(s) will be planned (DPA/DPD/DP1).YSSY to YBAS - if the TAF is CAVOK for YBAS, alternate(s) (DPA/DPD/DP1) will all be planned for because the sector distance is greater than xxxx nautical miles.DPA, DPD and DP1 are all planned with fuel adjustments and critical points noted on the flight plan.I hope i've clarified things a little more, to make your flights in Australia just that bit more realistic when flight planning according to Australian rules/laws/regulations. If i've repeated things you already know, I apologise in advance.Ash Frew.www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/download/.../234_1.pdf

Edited February 11, 201214 yr by Avroboeing