Before I get started on what i want to say I want to first off say that the eagle soft product is an amazing add on for Flight sim. I own it and am very happy with it. that said, my thoughts are as follows. I've always felt let down by the simplicity and dumbed down default planes of the lear and boeings that MS includes. I always felt like it was no different from flying the Cessna. After 9/11 Iand we all remember the stories of how Flight sim might of been used I felt like i too could operate a heavy. However, since the Citation has entered my hanger I have a whole new perspective. I am not sure exactly of what systems are just switches in this plane and which one actually work (meaning if Ididnt bleed something if it will actually cause a failure r its just a way to add realism by having a switch and it moving for eye candy purpose) but having a taste of how complex an aircraft can be is overwelming. I love the challenges and feeling of learning anything new in aviation and the Citation is the best so far. Even when I was a newbie learning SB with its very basic operation and FMC seemed to be way easier. I guess that even though the manual is very detailed one still needs to know more about all hte systems of pressuraztion, APU and the very envolved FMC. When I go thru the check list I have no idea where theses switches are and if the check list is made for this a/c or is a check list of the real a/c modified where certian switches cant be found. This a/c very much belongs in theflight sim world but it seems to me that a two person crew is needed. So now owning it and looking back at how I wish the FS team would make the complex a/c more real with the systems and all the real componants I kind of feel differently after getting a taste of it. So to talk about the future, hopefully we will start geting these kind of a/c with more to real everything but might it be that maybe we need a way to link two computers together as a multiplayer so that both users can control the plane? I mean really how many simmer acutally fly with someone else in the room helping by using the keyboard or some type of hardware? All the simmers over the world and I would say 99% of them fly alone and in what is becoming more and more closer to real a/c. How nice would it be if you could do a multiplayer flight with some one where you both were in the cockpit in the differnet seats and could both touch and operate everything? Right now we have an instructor mode and an observer mode but not a co pilot multiplayer mode. If designers keep giving us these great advancements its going to be hard to really get the full benefit from them as a solo act. Yes I've taken the Citation up around and down but it seems that I'm flying it like a single engine skyhawk. If i were to do a flight from lets say HOU to IAH with ATC I dont think I would actually be flying it as good as if I had another pilot helping. So my question to you guys is who feels they can handle all the systems and piloting of the Citation prefect by themselves and who feels that if there was a way for two simmers to fly the same a/c via multiplayer together a/c like the citation could be a stepping stone of as real as it gets? I for one would like to see more a/c like the citation rolling out by both MS and others but in addition we need more manual info on how systems like how, why, and what and a way to link two pilots together to really enjoy one flight.

I wonder of Arnold Palmer is single pilot certified for his CX or if the aircraft itself is even able to be single pilot certified..not that anyone would want to in real life. Like anything else the more you fly something (talking simming here), the more routine it will get and eventually you would be able to do it on an ATC network and to and from places using full SID/STARS, etc. At first it seems like you get tunnel visioned but then you get the hang of it and start to able to fly the airplane from the "outside" so to speak and not be "behind the aircraft" as they say.Just my thoughts.

Thanks for the kind words Nathan...we'll be giving your comments some thought:-)Trust me it get's easier to fly the CX the proper way after spending a few days in the cockpit and with the manual:-)

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't believe that the CX is certified for single pilot operation - you have to go down to one of the lower model Citations to have that option...

You're probably right, Ryan...I've never seen it advertised that way thats for sure.

Its a good question. While the idea of having two pilots linked together online is intriguing, a more practical solution would be to develop an AI copilot feature for Flight Simulator.Ideally the feature would give you a lot of flexibility in choosing how you want to delegate tasks to the AI copilot, allowing you to do more or less according to preference.In fact, I would like to see the AI copilot capable of making the entire flight, from startup to shutdown, allowing you to ride along and study the operation of systems if that's how you want to play.The AI copilot could follow the flight plan, making him a more sophisticated autopilot. But it would be really cool if you could give him simple, intuitive instructions and have him operationalize those. For example: "Fly the missed approach." "Fly to XXX VORTAC and hold." "Follow ATC instructions for vectors and altitude changes." An so on.Why do you think, FS gurus? Feasible? I would pay for this feature, no problem.

The CaptainSim 727 has a "CoPilot/Engineer" feature that sort of simulates some of the tasks that these people do. Down to automatically flipping switches for themselves. Its far from perfect but is extremely helpful, reducing the workload alot especially during pre-flight - takeoff/climbout. Its a start although other commercial developers haven't really copied this idea yet.On the other hand, the PIC767V2 promises to have "networked guages". In theory, we are supposed to be able to do exactly what the first poster suggested.....two pilots connected through the internet and both being able to control the same airplane. Maybe not all buttons will be accessable to both pilots but the guages should be. When that airplane is released we will all see what happens.I can't really understand why the Captain Sim's 727 method hasn't become the norm though. Maybe its just too difficult and developers may give the age old excuse: If they include such a feature, the price will have to be bumped up another $20 to compensate them for the extra man hours. But still, hats off the Capt. Sim for at least trying.

In thinking that way, I would enjoy a Virtual Capt. With all the systems, switches and procedures the CX has I wouldnt mind doing the flight and never touching the flight controls. Let the V-Capt keep his head out of the cockpit while I stay busy with the checklist and doing everything inside the cockpit.

Seems to me that FDC offers at least partial provisions for a little copilot help.

Happily, the "pause" button makes up for the lack of a co-pilot, when tasks seem to exceed the ability of one pilot...How many of you have used "pause"???? :)L.Adamson

I agree L.Adamson.I think the more people get used flying a particular aircraft the easier things will come to them. I have yet to see an aircraft in Flight Simulator that requires two people to fly it. An extra multiplayer pilot would be bored out of his mind trying to do this while the other get's the enjoyment of actually handling the bird. The Eaglesoft CitationX is no where near as complicated as VMAX's 747-200. What people need to do in this day and age is respect the differences in flying different aircraft. No two aircraft models are exactly the same and different training and procedures are required to operate a variety of different aircraft. This is barely now being addressed in FLight Simulator. Until now everyone had the luxury of flying dumbed down simulations of their real world counterparts. All that was needed was to know how to take off and land. Now we have to actually learn the various systems that come with the different machines we so choose to take up in the sky that day. Why do you think it was so extraordinary for test pilot's like Chuck Yeager to fly many different models in his post war years before breaking the speed record. Most pilots dream of this variety... A 737 pilot is just that, a 737 pilot. United is not going to throw this pilot in an A320 without extensive training in a simulator for that Airbus model. People loose site of this fact in the Flight Simulation world and when faced with it they have trouble with it. Flight Simulator is now giving us a feel of the various learning curves. Asking developers to tone down advancements in this area is foolish. You just got to get in there and learn the systems, it's not just about taking off and landing anymore. You have to know how to manage your fuel, get acquainted with various avionics systems, pressurize your cabin for altitude change, start your plane with the apu versus 'alt-E'. All this only helps your understanding and respect of real world operations which in turn helps many of us who are aspiring commuter/airline pilots or just hobbyist in general. We are all in this for the love of aviation so bring on all the complication that aviation entails. Now if ever an aircraft was produced that was more complicated than the VMAX 747 then maybe I could understand the need for a virtual co-pilot or some multiplayer option.. But surely not until Flight Simulator in general forces us to adhere to airspace regulations, holding patterns, and SID/STAR approaches that would require more attention to be in more areas than just the aircraft. As things are now we can land anywhere how we like without being virtually reprimanded. If airspace in real life was as laxed as it is in FS2k4 then most likely the real world Citation X would only require one pilot. She's really not that hard of an aircraft to master in comparison to other models out there (she

You make a great argument if the original post was about whining. That was not my post and maybe after rereading it you can understand what I am saying. What I was not saying is we should dumb down or take steps back when making a/c. What I was saying is now that developers are able and willing to bring us a/c that are closer and closer to the real thing with the systems and switches in the "future" how are we going to be able to handle it as a solo act without better manuals diagramming the systems and the what they do, how they do it, when they do what they do, what happens if it fails, what to do if/when it fails. Example is sure I can fly the plane as long as the engines are running and if the a/c looses air pressure it doesn't affect me sitting at 27 feet MSL in front of my computer but if I want to make my flight as real as I can then I need to know more than what I read in a check list. The CX has a very in depth manual but its lacking a lot of diagrams showing how systems work and an emergency checklist of each system failure. There are many system back-ups but I don't know exactly how to use them and if they will actually do anything anyway (which is limited by FS as the way I see it and its default failures which we need more of). This does not reflect the makers of the CX as to my learning curve, other pilots who know what to do can get this plane and run with it but I just need to hit the books and learn more about what a Load shed or WEMAC Boost is and does. I fly using FSFailure and I don't expect a prefect flight every time. Hope for and 98% get it but there's always a chance of something going wrong. Bad enough I have to worry about failures as well as user errors. As for the two pilot part yes, yes I feel that if we keep pushing forward with following a checklist that offers more and more items that need to be done then we should also think of a way equal out the workload. I fly using the default ATC and one of the big hang ups is that APP and DEP controllers will hand you off even if you are just skimming another controllers airspace only to be handed back sec's, mins later. This is one of the big flaws of the ATC engine present and feel that MS will only work at making it more efficient. Its only the second generation ATC. Personally I don't think a second pilot would/could get bored. First off who fly's anything above a personal jet without using the AP? All your doing is is flipping switches once above 1000'AGL til on short final. Its not like the workload cant be shared.

I don't think we're at a stage with Flight Simulator to even consider an extra pilot in the cockpit, it almost sounds crazy. All that I'm hearing here is someone who hasn't gotten used to the various systems of the CitationX. Once you get a few weeks in with this bird you should come away with less of a learning curve problem than you have now. If just operating the plane is so complicated for you now, how in the world could you manage when Flight Simulator get's up to speed with proper ATC procedures, SID/STAR requirements, better AI handling, weather, etc. Just flying the aircraft shouldn't be this hard that you require a second person or feature to help you out. Try flying in real life and see all the many things you have to keep on top of. Even flying a Cessna 182 requires you to stay ahead of your situation and makes any flying situation in FS pale in comparison.You have to get out of the days of Flight Simulator when it was more of a game versus a true simulation of what a pilot has to deal with. Flying has always been more than just taking off and landing. Try having to maintain control of your Cessna 152 with less than stellar visibility and in one had your holding your yoke and the other hand your holding your map of the surrounding area (trying to make out visual references). You spot the airport ahead and have to fly over it to see which way the wind sock is pointing in order to know what runway to land at. All the while you need to avoid any other aircraft that may be in the area. Don't forget you have to also constantly report your position over the radio... You have no co-pilot to help you and you end up having to land in heavy cross winds. This happens all the time in real life. Talk to some bush pilots or people taking their cross country flights for their PPL license....How in the world can you sit in front of a computer screen using a fully automated jet and tell me you still need help from another person????

> Personally I don't think a second pilot would/could get>bored. And I personally think it is a crazy idea that comes from lack of understanding what the second pilot is for and how cocpkpit tasks are shared between both pilots. MSFS is nowhere near this level of realism in all its apsects (weather, systems, ATC...) to warrant a second pilot. Maybe in FS2200.Michael J.

Slow down friend. THeres a big difference between the two. Having to move the mose to open up another window to then move the mouse to a very small spot to then click many times all the while the window is blocking your view of everything else is very different from real life flying. Even having the the ACP compact doesnt help much when you can have hands on but still have to open up a window to see what your doing. I'm not going to get into real life flying because I do fly in real life. My points were simply the facts that I brought a plane that has many new systems with out a manual stating "ALL" the info needed to full understand the systems and that in the future (ie 2020) as a person posted, we might get there were we would need two persons. I never said I needed help via a second person just the thought of how having developers able to create a/c so complex we might need to go there. One post even mentions that a developer is working on that to date. Just a little out of the box thinking nothing more. However, I would love to see you do a flight into lets say DFW and use nothing more than the mouse, a keyboard, and a yoke w/pedals and see you handle doing all the radio tune ins, a complete go thru of the checklist in hand opening the correct windows to verify or change, a fly a good flight without overlooking anything or ATC repeating a command while in the soup to min. Not saying you or it cant be done just making the case of were I was at when thinking of in the future if a/c keep getting more real how will we handled doing it as a solo act.