I said I would not, but now I did it - the P51

[dburne 2]

gotta assume that cockpit-less flyers are 15 years old or thereabouts. Real "siimmers" like to fly planes they were meant to fly. In control, and using instruments.

 

<sigh>. And here I thought I was done with this thread... but, since I am the OP I feel obligated to state my opinion as well:

 

I am 53 years old, will be turning 54 before the end of the month - and I must say, I feel more like 64. I am quite the far cry from 15 years old.

I have been flight simming - gaming- since the mid 90's.

I currently have 5 installed flight sims - games - that I enjoy. Some very complex. FSX included, which I have had many hundreds of hours of enjoyment.

At the end of the day, no matter how complex and " into it" we like to think we are getting, we are all basically playing video games on the computer...

 

I never thought I would like Flight. Never intended to even dowload the main island for free. I was a hard core flight simmer, and how dare they not bring us FS11... but then I gave it a try and the rest is history.

 

Yes, I purchased the P51 - a " cockpitless" aircraft. I had already expressed my dissappointment early on with this, both here on the forums and in an email to the Flight team. I much prefer all aircraft to have working cockpits. After learning that I could get at least the sensation of flying in a cockpit with it, by moving the eyepoint, I became intrigued and decided to purchase it and give it a try. I am glad I did. And yes, this is the only way I fly it.

 

Now to the broader point:

You state "gotta assume that cockpit-less flyers are 15 years old or thereabouts.".

If that is true, then that is fantastic! The reason we have Flight in the incarnation it is in, is MS has already decided apparently for them to stay in the flight simulator franchise, they need to reach a much larger target audience, ie develop a much larger customer base.

I am sure you " real simmers" that devoted so much time to FSX and FS9 and previous, would have been quite happy staying the numbers you were, probably declining each year, and have MS cater to you alone with FS11. Apparently that niche market was no longer enough.

 

Now if Flight brings in a bunch of new fliers, even if they are flying the P51 or Zero, then that brings the opportunity for a certain percentage of them to become more involved with flight simming, maybe even checking out FSX, and grow the customer base for MS hence making it viable for them to stay in the flight simulator franchise. Just look at some of the videos that were done early on, that had a bunch of P51 and Zero planes in them. Many undoubtedly new folks to the genre. One guy was making nice videos early on, but left soon thereafter. I wonder why? I bet he was new to it. Yes, I cringed when I saw these videos being made with cockpitless aircraft, but it never even occurred to me to put him down for it in any way...

 

Now imagine if this thread was started not by me, but by one of these 15 year old newcommers to the hobby... and he/she had gotten this response.

Do any of you long time hard core " real simmers" not remember back when you first got started? Perhaps you only had to start with a keyboard and mouse?

 

So yes, we here are all " simmers", and , we are all "gamers". How deeply one chooses to get into it is up to the individual, but it does not change this fact. I myself was getting very deep into FSX, decided not to even give Flight a try - after all it was not be a sim for a real simmer - but boy , am I ever glad I have changed that tune and direction for myself. I go back and read now some of the other forums and see similar expressions from these true simmers as have been expressed here by some, and I am very proud that I did not fall into that.

[Guest]

<sigh>

 

:good: Good post, Don!!! More mature then my reaction, but hey, I am only 50... :LMAO:

[dburne 2]

Good post, Don!!! More mature then my reaction, but hey, I am only 50

 

Lol thanks Jeroen, and I appreciate your feedback!

[jcomm 6,021]

Oops...! 54, 50, me 48... might it be something strange going on with us yongsters :Hypnotized:

 

And... btw, speaking of hardcore... although I no longer even have the FSX disks, a friend who is testing Aerosoft's Diamond Katana 4x sent me a link to it's page...

 

If you really enjoy detail, go through the features list on this FSX add-on...

 

Most of you certainly have FSX installed together with FLIGHT, so, it'll be easy to "fly" it and repliecate the exact procedures/cheklists/etc...

:-)

 

HERE IT IS

[LuisFelizTirado 33]

I will soon be 55, but I am still younger than Tom! :LMAO:

 

So, this means that I shall still be here when most of the "true" simmers are long gone. :Peace:

 

An old man was driving down the freeway when he got a call from his wife on the cell phone.

 

"Dear, be very careful, I just heard on the news that some crazy driver was going the wrong way on the freeway!"

 

The old man replied, "Heck! It's not just one driver, it's hundreds of them!"

 

Best regards.

Luis

[Guest Antlab]

Ok, just to stop all the polemics and the recriminations between us, that a long time ago were enthusiast about any added feature to our beloved sims, I propose to pause a bit, and reflect in silence about the wise words of a great man, commenting the purchase of cockpitless planes:

"One small step for a man, one giant leap toward Pong"

 

A.

[Scottj85 0]

I am really beginning to HATE those simmers vs gamers posts. Which are always posted by people who think they are simmers. Who gives a ###### if you are a simmer or a gamer. As if simmers are better people? Get a life. Really. How annyoing. How the hell do you dare to call everyone who does NOT think like you a 15 year old?

 

There's a substantial crossover between gamers and simmers anyway. When I started gaming, flight sims were still quite popular as a mainstream gaming genre. It's only relatively recently that this schism between gamers and simmers has become an issue.

[LHookins 3,113]

I'm reminded of a couple of quotes from the forums.

 

"We're both gamers, but only one of us knows he's playing a game."

 

"The airplane I pretend to fly is better than the airplane you pretend to fly."

 

So now, not only are we looked down upon because we don't express hatred for the cockpitless aircraft long and loud and frequently, we're positively reviled if we have any interest in them at all? It's as if we went to these people's houses and shaved their cats.

 

Hook

[enamel 4]

There's a substantial crossover between gamers and simmers anyway.

 

That's because sims are games, no matter how hard simmers wish this was not true. =)

[spilok 1,139]

Great responses. I see both sides...I really do. However, my feelings about planes without cockpits is the same. My money doesn't go to Microsoft for a plane I cannot control interrnally. I am a "simmer", not a gamer. IN MY HUMBLE OPINION. Let's move on.

 

Stan

[Arwen 289]

Sorry for now being around lately, but my desktop computer crashed a few hours after making that post (and is now in the shop, and I'm currently just using a laptop).

 

I really don't get why a number of you seem to feel that being a moderator means that I should no longer state my honest opinions about Flight.

This is what I actually wrote:

I feel exactly the same way. I no longer have much hope for Flight becoming much more than a game, as that seems to be what most users only want from it.

Once I get a better computer, I'll likely just get P3D, since that looks like it will have a more promising future as a flightsim.

 

I am nothing more than a gamer, and I am a low life as seen by many.

I am sorry but it is really sad when even a moderator joins in on it.

What I wrote was that I PERSONALLY don't have much hope for Flight becoming much more than a game. I have supported Flight, even when it was not "cool" (popular) to do so here. Flight has a lot of potential, but only (again this is just my opinion) if MS focuses more on the flightsim aspects of Flight, instead of concentrating so much on the gaming aspects. And this is not ever going to happen as long as the majority of users are more interested in Flight just being a fun game. It really doesn't matter how much of a fightsimmer you consider yourself to be . . . what matters is the message that you are sending to MS. If the majority of users seem to be happy with just a simplified flightsim/game, there is really no reason to make Flight more than that.

 

Really, Arwen, you have come a long way, and perhaps you should reconsider if this is really what you want to be doing.

Best regards.

Luis

Arwen - try to enjoy FLIGHT! You've actually contributed quite a LOT towards making me even consider it with your "FLIGHT WILL BE GOOD" post :-) Remember? ;-)

I have "come a long way" in what regards? I'm here (on AVSIM) because I love flightsims (not flying games), that has not changed. I have always been totally honest in my feelings toward Flight, and I have always posted both my positive and negative feelings about it. THAT is one of the purposes of this forum . . . to discuss Flight . . . and for that discussion to be balanced, it with include both the positive and the negative opinions of members.

 

I have always hoped that Flight would eventually become a more complete flightsim, as I didn't believe that it could succeed without that happening. But now it appears that I was wrong, it the majority of users don't even care (based on their purchases) if an aircraft even has a cockpit.

[dburne 2]

I have always hoped that Flight would eventually become a more complete flightsim, as I didn't believe that it could succeed without that happening. But now it appears that I was wrong, it the majority of users don't even care (based on their purchases) if an aircraft even has a cockpit

 

Read the post again you quoted, and stated you feel exactly the same way. That is what suprised me.

As for msyelf, if you read any of my other replies or any of my other posts on this forum previously, you would know I also agree with being able to both praise the positives and also point out the negatives.

 

I myself am not giving up on Flight, not yet and am supporting it in hopes of what it might can become, or at least be a stepping stone for. If MS offering basic version of airplanes helps broaden the community, and even brings just a handful of new folks into the flight sim community, then imho that is a good thing. It needs a larger customer base, the community needs the new blood.

 

At the same time realize I do not believe in any way, this means they will abandon aircraft with virtual cockpits. I may very well be wrong, and if I am then I would be greatly dissappointed. We are still very early on in this process and I am looking forward to seeing how Flight progresses not just next month, but over the next 12-18 months.

 

PS: Sorry to hear about your computer woes, that can be a major bummer - hope it gets sorted out soon for you.

[Arwen 289]

Read the post again you quoted, and stated you feel exactly the same way. That is what suprised me.

I did read what I quoted again, before I replied. This was the part that I quoted:

"psolk, on 14 April 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

 

It is funny, in the beginning most of the threads about Flight were about flying realistic procedures, instrument procedures, flight models, now it is about making "fake" cockpit views, how fast can I go, how high can I go, oh boy, the tower has a view, planes don't need cockpits, look I ditched my controllers for X-Box so the only pattern I see is one of Flight going in the wrong direction faster than a cockpit-less P-51...

 

But maybe MS is just getting what they wanted with their intended target audience

 

THAT was the part that I agree with . . . completely.

 

As for msyelf, if you read any of my other replies or any of my other posts on this forum previously, you would know I also agree with being able to both praise the positives and also point out the negatives.

 

I myself am not giving up on Flight, not yet and am supporting it in hopes of what it might can become, or at least be a stepping stone for. If MS offering basic version of airplanes helps broaden the community, and even brings just a handful of new folks into the flight sim community, then imho that is a good thing. It needs a larger customer base, the community needs the new blood.

Yet your post sort of states that it is "sad" that a moderator (me) posted something so negative about Flight.

 

I have not totally given up on Flight, but I have now lost most of my former hope that it will ever be much more than a simplified flightsim.

 

At the same time realize I do not believe in any way, this means they will abandon aircraft with virtual cockpits. I may very well be wrong, and if I am then I would be greatly dissappointed. We are still very early on in this process and I am looking forward to seeing how Flight progresses not just next month, but over the next 12-18 months.

MS has made it very clear that Flight is being targeted towards the "masses" . . . if the masses seem to care more about the gaming aspects of Flight than the simulator aspects, than that is the direction that Flight with continue to take. You (and many others) are supporting the gaming aspects (in my opinion) when you purchase non-cockpit aircraft. MS is using the DLC sales as their gauge for what users want (way more than what people like me write in forums).

 

PS: Sorry to hear about your computer woes, that can be a major bummer - hope it gets sorted out soon for you.

Thanks. It's been a really bad year for computer issues so far. Hopefully the repairs won't be more than I can afford, or I'll be without any desktop computer (any unable to support Flight or my gaming mods until I can replace it).

[dburne 2]

THAT was the part that I agree with . . . completely.

 

Then we will agree to disagree.

 

I view those words that you agree completely with as nothing more than putting down those of us here that are enjoying Flight, for what is currently is and hope that it eventually becomes. I do not see any constructive critique's of the Flight program in that...

 

In your words, you make some very valid points on what I, and undoubtedly many of us , hope that Flight eventually becomes - or at least leads to. However it is obvious we will not see everything we want anytime soon - and maybe never - but hopefully with all the feedback they are getting, we will see at least more of it.

[Guest Antlab]

You (and many others) are supporting the gaming aspects (in my opinion) when you purchase non-cockpit aircraft. MS is using the DLC sales as their gauge for what users want (way more than what people like me write in forums).

 

In my opinion some people don't understand that by buying some type of DLC they actually send to MS a signal much more important than tens of post full of "constructive criticism". It's just a reinforcement of the new "philosophy", well express by Howard: "let simmers express their rage or doubts, for us the important things are only related to the DLC sales data".

 

It's very naive thinking that with the revenues from very simple models (e.g. cockpitless) MS will fund the development of complex features, as ATC and similar.

If they see that many people accept (or anyhow buy) the rudimentary items, from the marketing point of view doesn't make sense to spend a lot of resources in other more sophisticated directions.

 

A.