This post is not meant to any way "knock" payware designers -- it is just that I have noticed the ever increasing quality of both payware and freeware designs. It seems to me that the quality and innovation is rising so quickly that it could in fact discourage some otherwise very good designer/builders. I have a son who is a computer programmer by trade -- how he manages to keep up with the advances in computing is beyond me. I don't know of any other trade that requires this -- stand still for more than one minute and you are DEAD -- past history! So what about our Sim a/c designers -- I guess both freeware and payware . Can they/will they keep up with these advancements? Everything in life has its pros and cons - its good points and bad points. For us as simmers, we take it as natural that rapidly improving standards and quality is good -- but it will have its bad side as well. Will we eventually see a decrease in the number of designers. Maybe some kind of monopoly developing?And what about MS as well? Can they keep up with the addon designers? Will their output start to look "amateurish" in comparison to what the "civilians" are creating? It seems to me that MS a/c are already there in that category -- for gamers only, serious contestants need not apply.What say you?Barry

Hey Barry,Well, I think that we are going to see an increase in payware, simply because "we" expect so much from our addons these days that the time spent making them is too much to keep free.How Milton and Co manage it is amazing.These days the addons are so complex that it is difficult for "one man bands".As for the default planes, well they are there for any one to use, I think they will always be there, BUT MS gives us a "sandbox", we can use the various addons, whether they are pay or free, to create the world we want, if someone just wants a simple fly around they can use the default 172 and default scenery and be quite happy, but if someone wants to fly an extremely complex airliner into real world airports then you can also do that.I do think that simmers can take for granted the amount of time it takes to produce an addon, time costs, and as I have already said if we keep striving for reality we are all going to have to pay in the end.But in the same breath I also appauled the freeware creators too, they do produce some extremely good addons.Dan.

"And what about MS as well? Can they keep up with the addon designers? Will their output start to look "amateurish" in comparison to what the "civilians" are creating? It seems to me that MS a/c are already there in that category -- for gamers only, serious contestants need not apply."I think this has been the case for quite a while. I honestly can't remember the last time I used a default MS plane... the addons are just too good at this point to even consider it.

>"And what about MS as well? Can they keep up with the addon>designers? Will their output start to look "amateurish" in>comparison to what the "civilians" are creating? It seems to>me that MS a/c are already there in that category -- for>gamers only, serious contestants need not apply.">>I think this has been the case for quite a while. I honestly>can't remember the last time I used a default MS plane... the>addons are just too good at this point to even consider it.Yes - I agree. But I guess what I am asking (not saying) is what future effect this may possibly have. Is there an unintended "down" side to all this?Regards Barry

Yes I do wonder, as it must take ages, to program all the gauges.

I can agree but I think it should be considered that many add on planes, at least among the freeware ones,take some design assistance from the default planes. Gauges are a good example, many designers "borrowed" the MS ones. If MS decides that it will not concentrate on improving existing or adding new planes, we will all be the losers.

>"And what about MS as well? Can they keep up with the addon>designers? Will their output start to look "amateurish" in>comparison to what the "civilians" are creating?Which is why I said in another thread that MS must leave some headroom for the addon folk. I'm still running FS2002 which, with all the addons like Activesky, is as good as and in many respects better than FS9 with but a few exceptions. The only tinkering I do these days is to mod an AFCAD or add a new schedule. Most of the time I'm flying, smoothly without any stuttering or CTD's and I love it thanks to all those addon folk. So I'm quite happy to pay a little more for excellence!

BarryI agree with most of what you are saying to an extent that maybe Microsoft should concentrate on the invironment ie give us the world and the atmosphere.I would love Microsoft to give us the next version with much more detailed mesh, accurate towns,coastlines, rivers, lakes, roads even forest placement.Then the creme de la creme for me would be a world living atmosphere matching the world weather systems of the day,pressure systems with their accociated winds, visibility etc so you can fly real time with what is there for real.Sell this Real world and let subsims use it for Flying, sailing, driving, Ballooning, you name it.This world would be so accurate that it could even be used in schools for education purposes.Let the addon guys supply the aircraftOh well we can but dreamPeter

"It seems to me that MS a/c are already there in that category -- for gamers only, serious contestants need not apply."I have to strongly disagree here... :-hmmm All the Century of Flight vintage aircraft are actually very good. The default flight models are very nice as well... From what I've seen the most realistic flight model for the Cessna 172/182 in FS2k4 still goes to the default Cessna (the exception here would be the Caravans, those birds could still use more work). I fly in the real world and I must say using the CH Yoke/Peddles combo in conjunction with the default Cessna's, you get a pretty good representation of what you get in the real bird. The only thing really lacking in the default hanger is the Heavies (737/747). I liked the default DC3 already but there have been updates which have done wonders with that model. Even the default Learjet is a nice piece of work. In previous versions of Flight Simulator I would have more than agreed with you but in the case of FS2k4 I have to give credit where it's due. Microsoft did a great job with their default birds for once. Hopefully we'll get the same lineup with improvements in the next version of FS (I love the vintage planes). One good point of your post is it's true freeware/payware have pushed the envelope for Microsoft. We may see some interesting things going on with the default 737/747 next time around. If we don't then your point would be valid and allot of us would be ###### by Microsoft's lack of attention to the heavies. If it's too much work to do them right maybe Microsoft should leave that job to the add-on community. Microsoft can stick to what they do the best, release a quality base sim (FS2k6) and concentrate on the Vintage models and the default Cessna's... Why waist time on something no one is going to ultimately fly anyway...:-roll

Charlie Hall I was just about to make that point, you beat me to it... :-wave Seeing how long it takes MS to release the SDK's, we need the default planes as a reference point when a new version of Flight Simulator hits the streets. So many people scream for compatibility that the default models are a good template to see what has changed. Many freeware designers don't have the inside track with Microsoft like the big boys of Dreamfleet and PMDG and therefore have no idea of the changes coming with the new version of FS.We need the default planes in more ways than just enjoyment... :-)

I think the most discouraging thing for me is the time it now takes to build anything anymore. I just don't have that kind of time anymore. Don't know if anyone has noticed but the most successful designs out there now are built by *groups* of payware *and* freeware developers.

Barry-good topic!IMO as far as a "monopoly" goes- probably not at least short term (3-5 years). We aren't seeing price wars or not even too much "overlapping" on the creation of an add-on that has already been developed for that version of FS.As long as MS keeps pumping out FS every few years we probably won't ever see overlap according to that version of FS. Fo that reason, there will always be demand as long as the add-on developer makes the grade on basic standards like VC's and full host of moving parts for aircraft, etc. What we MAY see is more diversity in add on types. I.E. like USA roads, maybe a nice weather program add on that uses live doppler radar images and satellite views and imports that into FS, etc. Who knows?

Very good thinking Peter! I always thought it would be so cool to be able to "boot up the world", start by driving a (custom made) car a few hundred miles, maybe drag race another friend that you see on the road on the way, pull up to the airport, get in the plane and take off to an overseas location then jump in the water and try to sail a cruise ship to the Bahamas... so many games all using the same "world", linked up via internet seeing all the other players would be breathtaking and probably cause me to lose my job and sleepless nights lol...But there really would be no reason why all the players couldn't be linked up sharing the same "world" doing different things, as long as the programming code all shared the same themes/schemas.The possibilities are endless...let's keep dreaming!

>IMO as far as a "monopoly" goes- probably not at least short>term (3-5 years). We aren't seeing price wars or not even too>much "overlapping" on the creation of an add-on that has>already been developed for that version of FS.>Price wars are impossible as most addons are already sold at a margin that's so thin as to be neglectable.Any lower and everyone looses money (in fact, many addons do just that right now).That's also the reason for the lack of competing designs. The market in most segments is simply too small to support 2 competing products.

>IMO as far as a "monopoly" goes- probably not at least short>term (3-5 years). We aren't seeing price wars or not even too>much "overlapping" on the creation of an add-on that has>already been developed for that version of FS.>Price wars are impossible as most addons are already sold at a margin that's so thin as to be neglectable.Any lower and everyone looses money (in fact, many addons do just that right now).That's also the reason for the lack of competing designs. The market in most segments is simply too small to support 2 competing products.