Can we pilot a real 737 if we can

[TurboTomato 90]

You do realise that you are now coming across as patronising as well as arrogant?

[Great Ozzie 101]

Come on now. Are we really going to get into a nitpicking battle in the middle of the larger issue?

 

"what is good for the goose"... but it does speak to the issue and you dismiss it.

 

First it's... " no NGX / airline pilots speaking to this... so yeah we can... trust me..."

 

Now it's... " the airline guy is biased... (we could still do it... trust me...)"

[scandinavian13 5,192]

An accident can happen at any time. Means absolutely nothing you have a few hours and somehow that insulates you.

 

Where did I say it did? In fact, I alluded to the opposite.

 

Completely irrelevant to what I am talking about. That person who has the 100+ hour to PPL (for whatever reason) may be quite the safe pilot... / the proper attitudes toward flying

 

Is it, though? You seem to be under the impression that experience begets safety. I have a very safe attitude towards flying, but the concept of flight is the same whether you're in a deHavilland Beaver, a Cessna 172, or a Boeing 777. You use engines to move you forward to create lift, to counteract drag and gravity. Stick left rolls left, stomp left yaws left, and stick back makes the trees get smaller (unless you keep holding it back - and they get larger again).

 

Your assertion that my comment that "flying is flying" somehow makes me a novice or unknowledgeable aviator couldn't be further from the truth.

 

Number of hours to solo or PPL or whatever means absolutely squat in terms of safely and I would even extend that to ability. "sometimes the last to blossom is most beautiful of all"

 

So you're okay with just contradicting yourself?

 

The number of hours doesn't matter, but because I have fewer hours than Ró, I'm comparatively less safe. Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.

 

After all, it was you who said:

"It is the difference between real world experience and low time / no time "pilots"."

 

You know, if you're going to call my own credentials into question - which I interpret as a personal jab - you might want to get your own stories and opinions straight first.

 

You do realise that you are now coming across as patronising as well as arrogant?

 

Did you not see my post earlier?

Call me pompous if you'd like. It's already my reputation around here, unless I'm mistaken, so I'll take it.

 

Furthermore, you called my experience into question, which is a personal jab. At that point, all bets are off. You took the gloves off. I played hockey for way too long to sit there and not do the same.

 

"what is good for the goose"... but it does speak to the issue and you dismiss it.

 

First it's... " no NGX / airline pilots speaking to this... so yeah we can... trust me..."

 

Now it's... " the airline guy is biased... (we could still do it... trust me...)"

 

No. I very, very clearly stated his opinions make sense. In fact, I've stated this fact a couple times now, but you seem to be ignoring it. I'm simply offering a counterpoint, or attempting to do so, despite both of your best efforts.

 

I have also very, very clearly stated that I have my own biases in my writing and opinions here, so his bias is no more detracting from his points than my own.

 

Further still, I'm not asking anyone to trust me. I'm at least providing anecdotal evidence in support of what I believe, as opposed to you and others who are simply just coming in saying "YEAH! WHAT HE SAID!!!"

 

...as if your approval is some sort of seal of worth.

[Airbus Commander 563]

Ara lads now come on, I've a 9 year old Daughter that argues less than this.... :rolleyes:

 

Everyone's entitled to their opinions, particularly if they can back them up with evidence or even experience, but there's no need for personal attacks over a discussion like this, let's keep it civil.

 

Kyle made some interesting facts and he holds one opinion, I hold a different one. Hopefully there won't be a case in the future that proves one of us right, so for now let's just accept both opinions as valid.

 

And FTR, I wasn't in the least bit offended by Kyles suggestion that I was biased, I'm probably biased as hell and set in my ways by this stage, it's a fair point to make. I still think I'm right looking on it from an objective and experienced point of view, but again, bias could influence objectivity.

 

Regards,

Ró.

[TurboTomato 90]

Furthermore, you called my experience into question, which is a personal jab. At that point, all bets are off. You took the gloves off. I played hockey for way too long to sit there and not do the same.

 

Is that aimed at me? If so where did I do this?

 

No. I very, very clearly stated his opinions make sense. In fact, I've stated this fact a couple times now, but you seem to be ignoring it. I'm simply offering a counterpoint, or attempting to do so, despite both of your best efforts.

 

I have also very, very clearly stated that I have my own biases in my writing and opinions here, so his bias is no more detracting from his points than my own.

 

Further still, I'm not asking anyone to trust me. I'm at least providing anecdotal evidence in support of what I believe, as opposed to you and others who are simply just coming in saying "YEAH! WHAT HE SAID!!!"

 

...as if your approval is some sort of seal of worth.

 

The thing is we have your argument on the one side - backed up with (in your own words) 'anecdotal evidence' - vs Ró's opinion - backed up by near enough actual experience. Oh and the opinions of most of the pilots on pprune if you do a search on the topic in question. But yet you will argue until you are blue in the face.

[Great Ozzie 101]

You know, if you're going to call my own credentials into question - which I interpret as a personal jab

 

I am not calling your "credentials" into question Kyle...

 

I see some of your statements as quite arrogant.

 

...as if your approval is some sort of seal of worth.

 

so you perceive some slight... and decide to take a personal jab yourself... ok fine. whatever.

 

reread what I said and try to understand the perspective... there is no contradiction.

 

as opposed to you and others who are simply just coming in saying "YEAH! WHAT HE SAID!!!"

 

Go back and read my posts Kyle... instead of posting such rubbish.

 

Your very responses do not display an attitude of humility... a couple of us note it... and now we need to be discredited by you... this is not what I call "debate".

[cimgrp501 30]

I feel compelled to chime in relative to the FedEx/Fred Smith comment, since I spent 12 years with that great company from start-up to 7 billion $ global leader. Many respected, knowledgeable and intelligent people saw the great vision and potential of FWS business model or the substantial number of extremely intelligent and talented human resources would never have fully committed to the venture at start. The only person I know of (having heard FWS personally discuss this on numerous occasions) who completely dismissed his idea was his Yale B school professor (no surprise there), who still gave him a "C".

 

Having spent hours in the cockpits of 721's and 722's as well as DC-10's, and having flown 172's et. al. a bit, to describe the differences in flying as "subtle" boggles my mind. I know of more than one flight crew member who did not transition well from the 72's to the 10's due to "subtle" differences in approach and landing characteristics. The difference from light AC to 737 is far greater than transitioning to driving full speed around the track in a F1 rocket from driving your 325M like a rocket on your local expressway, and that would be a very low percentage stretch for 99% plus of humankind (my opinion, no research conducted).

 

I think the "bias" (with all due respect) is reflected far more in the "subtle differences" perspective than that of the veteran Airbus driver, whose perspective seems firmly rooted in reality and years of experience. And to compare ability and performance in a company sim to the real thing is, from my perspective, to fail to grasp an equally challenging transition from an artificial reality to the real world dynamics. But it's an interesting conversation, and I wish there were some way to give all so inclined a go at it, as long as I am several miles away. :mellow:

 

Roy

[TurboTomato 90]

Ara lads now come on, I've a 9 year old Daughter that argues less than this.... :rolleyes:

 

Everyone's entitled to their opinions, particularly if they can back them up with evidence or even experience, but there's no need for personal attacks over a discussion like this, let's keep it civil.

 

Kyle made some interesting facts and he holds one opinion, I hold a different one. Hopefully there won't be a case in the future that proves one of us right, so for now let's just accept both opinions as valid.

 

Regards,

Ró.

 

You're too much of a gentleman Ró :lol:

[Airbus Commander 563]

You're too much of a gentleman Ró :lol:

That's me alright... :hi: Most of the time anyways... ^_^ :rolleyes:

 

Regards,

Ró.

[Great Ozzie 101]

The difference from light AC to 737 is far greater than transitioning to driving full speed around the track in a F1 rocket from driving your 325M like a rocket on your local expressway, and that would be a very low percentage stretch for 99% plus of humankind (my opinion, no research conducted).

 

Even when transitioning from one GA type to another... I had to think long and hard "do I do a self-checkout here or do I grab one of my fellow instructors"... the overwhelmingly majority of the time I would have someone (instructor) in that right seat.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Is that aimed at me? If so where did I do this?

 

Here:

Put it this way - should I listen to you (you can fill in the blanks here for your flying experience), or Ró, someone with 2 current TRs and a (presumably) lapsed TR on the 737CL?

 

 

The thing is we have your argument on the one side - backed up with (in your own words) 'anecdotal evidence' - vs Ró's opinion - backed up by near enough actual experience. Oh and the opinions of most of the pilots on pprune if you do a search on the topic in question. But yet you will argue until you are blue in the face.

 

Right. I understand that, but those pilots on other forums are equally biased for the same aforementioned reasons:

"I just paid upwards of $50,000 - $100,000+ but your average simmer could pull it off? How about no!"

 

Admitting that someone with zero experience can do what you can do with thousands of hours and years of work is not a pill I'd like to take. On the other hand, I'm not going to claim it's impossible. I understand why they say no, but I don't like using 'never' unless I can categorically prove it would never happen.

 

I am not calling your "credentials" into question Kyle...

 

So, tell me what these are meant to elicit, in terms of a response:

"This very statement shows how little you actually know about RW flying."

"It is the difference between real world experience and low time / no time "pilots"."

 

I don't really see those as some simple expression. I understand how I can come across as arrogant, but that's not my aim. I take pride in what I do, and it shows in my writing. Taking shots at me isn't going to stop that.

 

so you perceive some slight... and decide to take a personal jab yourself... ok fine. whatever.

 

See above. I really can't see how you would write what you wrote without an intended slight.

...and of course I took a jab back. I try to be civil, but when someone takes a stab at me, I'm not going to sit idly and take it for very long.

 

Your very responses do not display an attitude of humility... a couple of us note it... and now we need to be discredited by you... this is not what I call "debate".

 

My responses displayed a civil discussion until shots were taken at me. At that point, I deal with people on the level I was dealt with.

 

Even when transitioning from one GA type to another... I had to think long and hard "do I do a self-checkout here or do I grab one of my fellow instructors"... the overwhelmingly majority of the time I would have someone (instructor) in that right seat.

 

For the record. I agree with you fully on this.

 

I never intended to suggest this wouldn't be the smarter option. There's a vast difference between "could it be done" and "should it be done."

 

Legally, I can fly without charts (Part 91, not flying a large or turbine aircraft), but should I? I'd say no.

[Airbus Commander 563]

Right. I understand that, but those pilots on other forums are equally biased for the same aforementioned reasons:

"I just paid upwards of $50,000 - $100,000+ but your average simmer could pull it off? How about no!"

Just to point out, I didn't pay a cent for my training, twas all paid for by the company.

 

Regards,

Ró.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Just to point out, I didn't pay a cent for my training, twas all paid for by the company.

 

Fair point to be made. I'm glad you didn't see slight in the comments I made earlier, by the way.

 

Based on the amount of time you've mentioned since flying the 737CLs, I'm guessing that was back in the day of ab-initio training even back here in the States? I know there are a few airlines who still do it (DLH?). Unfortunately, I couldn't find any here Stateside when I started flying. That would've been nice!

[Airbus Commander 563]

Fair point to be made. I'm glad you didn't see slight in the comments I made earlier, by the way.

 

Based on the amount of time you've mentioned since flying the 737CLs, I'm guessing that was back in the day of ab-initio training even back here in the States? I know there are a few airlines who still do it (DLH?). Unfortunately, I couldn't find any here Stateside when I started flying. That would've been nice!

Indeed it was, back in '88 I started training, we're still doing, as are Lufthansa, KLM, BA (sort of), Flybe, Cityjet and others I can't think of. Seems to be a European thing, haven't seen it in years state-side...

 

Regards,

Ró.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Indeed it was, back in '88 I started training, we're still doing, as are Lufthansa, KLM, BA (sort of), Flybe, Cityjet and others I can't think of. Seems to be a European thing, haven't seen it in years state-side...

 

Gotcha. Yeah, I can't remember the last time I saw mention of it over here. Sure, there are pilot academies, but you pay to go to them (for US carriers, Stateside). I do remember some of my neighbors in the neighborhood I grew up in had their training paid for, and one of them went through the military.

 

I think the only reason I knew DLH was still doing it was that they had an academy on the other side of town from one I worked at.