Can we pilot a real 737 if we can

[Kattz 132]

(FA opens CP door) Screams. "OMG, the crew's gone! No, really, CMD A is flying the aircraft, the pilot and FO have left the aircraft!!!" (passes out) Lead FA asks over the PA, "Will everyone with flight experience please come forward?" A handsomely-attractive person steps up and says loudly, "Yes, ma'am, I've 745 hours in this type, how may I help?" Another person steps up and says "Yes, but I have over a THOUSAND hours on my PC flying the 737-800 WITH WINGLETS"... The FA looks a little confused, and then grabs the sim pilot by the hand and says "You'll do, you have more experience." Simmer looks at RL 737 driver and smirks as he is led away... Parachute, anyone?

[OzWhitey 3,353]

 

Meet me out in PHX and I'll treat you to a 'berto's burrito. You haven't lived until you've tried one, but unless you're near a restroom later, catastrophe will surely follow.

 

No joke.

 

This is great. My other nick is 'Berto' (from Roberto) and I have never met another one.

I like the idea of mexican food (it is exotic from my frame of reference, have I ever actually met a Mexican? Not sure!)

KPHX and Arizona in general are some of my most-simmed regions.

 

So I'm in!

 

If you can't afford to send me the plane fare, i'll have to sim this. I'll boot up Flightbeam KPHX and the 'other Berto' can send me the recipe.

 

I will then attempt to land the NGX.

 

If Scandinavian or any other Avsimmers want to chip in to cover costs, i'll go to Phoenix for real, have THREE of these burritos and then we'll find a level-D sim and try out some of the things we've been talking about in this thread!

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Thats funny lol. One day while hanging in the air refueling orbit, my co-pilot checked off and said he had to visit the lav. He hadn't look too good the whole evening. Suddenly we were tasked with a couple of customers looking for a few thousand pounds of petro. My boom headed to the back and i asked the flight engineer to go check on prince charming. I glanced to my left and noticed 1 guy rolling in on my left wing while 1 slipped in trail. I made a PA announcement telling the co to come back asap. I even flicked the seat belt switch multiple times. I didn't want to delay the customers so i gave the boom permission to do his thing. It's easy to handle the radios and monitor the aircraft while passing gas but it's not allowed since it's a critical phase. I don't know if he had one of those burritos but he didn't make it back up front until approach. He was put on quaters and grounded for 3 days.

 

Haha - that's pretty funny. Must've been quite an experience for him.

 

This is great. My other nick is 'Berto' (from Roberto) and I have never met another one.

I like the idea of mexican food (it is exotic from my frame of reference, have I ever actually met a Mexican? Not sure!)

KPHX and Arizona in general are some of my most-simmed regions.

 

So I'm in!

 

If you can't afford to send me the plane fare, i'll have to sim this. I'll boot up Flightbeam KPHX and the 'other Berto' can send me the recipe.

 

I will then attempt to land the NGX.

 

If Scandinavian or any other Avsimmers want to chip in to cover costs, i'll go to Phoenix for real, have THREE of these burritos and then we'll find a level-D sim and try out some of the things we've been talking about in this thread!

 

I'll see what I can drag up. I know I can get out there because my buddy gave me passes on USAir...ways. You really don't want three 'berto's burritos. You'd be in for a long day...

They're delish, but they'll tear you up.

[Piggles 17]

Hi,

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong please. I have an idea what squawk 7700 does. However, in this situation I am not sure if the ATC would know that something is wrong before the cabin does. Either if the pilots pass away instantly nobody can talk to the ATC anymore and neither anyone will inform the cabin crew. (Yeah sure they will find it out sooner or later). If the copilot and the pilot start to feel sick they probably will inform cabin crew and ATC. Now in the second case ATC is aware that the crew has a problem. The momment communications stop ATC will probably also figure out that there is a bigger problem than expected.

In the first case I also assume that anybody who could fly the aircraft won't be in the cockpit 10 seconds after the pilots are dead or disabled or whatever.

In the meantime, while nobody is in the cockpit flying, whilst the stewardess is looking out for somebody to fly, the aircraft probably will continue it's route. Now (if we aren't over the atlantic, or in a hughe controllzone) I would assume ATC will at one point try to conntact the aircraft. Be it for a frequency change, a traffic warning or whatever, and then he will also start to assume that something is wrong.

I am sure aware of that this may not be always the case but as small the chances are that both pilots die, I asume that the chances are high that ATC will know before the cabin crew that there is a problem.

 

Anyways, you can pull more attention towards yourself by setting transponder code 7700, however that doesn't help you in my point of view, as nobody will answer over your transponder. Probably ATC is gonna ask what the problem is at some point, however first you have to even hear the callsign at this point, and then you will have to use the radio anyways.

However if you figure out the radio instead setting transponder codes you can at least try to explain the situation and get them help you, which 7700 on the transponder doesn't.

 

Let's just make it clear what my point is.

 

The simmer knows on the sim how to set a transponder.

 

Real world Pilots also know how to set the transponder.

 

There is no difference right?

 

Sorry yes there is a big difference. Your post I have quoted above documents it.

 

You do not understand what happens when you operate the system. You know theoretically how it is operated (without actually I assume ever using one) but not what actually happens when you do.

 

If you squawk 7700 - ATC will be trying to contact you. Not through the transponder, but on the coms radio, if they cannot get you on frequency, they will try others. Which rather negates arguments before that a PPL would not be able to find the PTT button on the yoke for some bizarre reason. Well lets assume they actually couldn't, ATC could, if not getting a response put out a blind call to the aircraft stating where the PTT button was.... Add to this they already know you have a problem, your heading, altitude and position - which makes the Mayday call all that much easier. They expect a Mayday call to follow the emergency squawk also, so you can be very sure you have everyone's attention.

 

It is just one example of what happens when someone learns things in a sim with no background understanding, operating a switch or turning a dial is not enough to qualify as being able to fly an airplane.

 

I can see though this thread will remain never ending. People join it and change the nuance of the discussion, then quote people out of context of the responses they have given. Suddenly one would not set 7700 because the aircraft is now on the ground being started by a simmer for a little jolly around the airfield - when at the time I was responding to the notion that a simmer would calmly jump into the left seat when the crew all drop dead for some unknown reason as if it was the most normal thing in the world and no big deal.

 

With respect to all, this thread really is not worth more of my time. Fortunately I enjoy sims and I enjoy real world aviation, I have plenty of friends who fly for the airlines, I have seen plenty of people go from flying light aircraft to their first airline job. Not one of them has the attitude of some of the posters on this thread - all I can say as a new poster on this forum is I'm getting a pretty clear picture painted here.

 

All the best,

 

Gemma

[Ponk 51]

The thread will never end if you always tell people what they know and don't know, you make too many assumptions.

 

You totally dissed my story about my 1st lesson, "instructor flying with his feet while I thought I was doing it", whats all that about? instructors talking about me behind my back etc! . I don't know why you have this attitude or would assume that. I suppose I didn't fly behind the tow aircraft and land the glider at Scotlandwell airfield either, the instructor was doing it.

 

A very small minority of people could fly the 737 and somehow live to tell the story, most wouldn't manage.

[xxJohnxx 21]

Hi,

 

You do not understand what happens when you operate the system. You know theoretically how it is operated (without actually I assume ever using one) but not what actually happens when you do.

 

If you squawk 7700 - ATC will be trying to contact you. Not through the transponder, but on the coms radio, if they cannot get you on frequency, they will try others. Which rather negates arguments before that a PPL would not be able to find the PTT button on the yoke for some bizarre reason. Well lets assume they actually couldn't, ATC could, if not getting a response put out a blind call to the aircraft stating where the PTT button was.... Add to this they already know you have a problem, your heading, altitude and position - which makes the Mayday call all that much easier. They expect a Mayday call to follow the emergency squawk also, so you can be very sure you have everyone's attention.

 

Well I can understand your point very well now.

But please also understand my point. Not finding the PTT is one little point, however I basically wanted to say that the radio unit itself is difficult. For instance, your Copilot is using radio #2 to for ATC coms and has it mic switch set to it. The captain however is listening to radio #2 and #1 however his mic switch is set to #1, which is maybe set to an ATIS or another frequceny. I don't know if such a radio config would ever be in an airliner, as I don't have any experience in these, but you could ask your friends if you want to.

 

Yes I toatally agree with you, the faster you can make somebody aware that you have a problem the faster sombody can help you. But personally in such a situation I would try to figure out the radio, then I could still set transponder code 7700, and then try to get off a mayday call.

 

(without actually I assume ever using one)

 

That assumption is wrong

 

Best regards,

 

Jonathan

[Humpty 751]

Has anyone heard of pilot errors ? come on guys if experienced RL pilots can causes crashes and errors you think simmers would be able to fly it in RL no chance. even if it was a completely FBW aircraft.

 

I have said earlier, look at the F1 drivers they practice on a simulator and also in RL and still they make mistakes.

[TurboTomato 90]

In my opinion this thread is entirely conjecture until a real NGX pilot that has good experience of the PMDG product comes along and comments. Talk all you like but until then this thread will remain ill-informed speculation, nothing more.

[OzWhitey 3,353]

In my opinion this thread is entirely conjecture until a real NGX pilot that has good experience of the PMDG product comes along and comments. Talk all you like but until then this thread will remain ill-informed speculation, nothing more.

 

You're calling it 'ill-informed' and then you ask us to find a 'real NGX pilot'...

 

Lol!

[TurboTomato 90]

You're calling it 'ill-informed' and then you ask us to find a 'real NGX pilot'...

 

Lol!

 

Sorry, didn't have time to trawl 18 pages to find it...

 

So who's the NGX pilot then?

[Airbus Commander 563]

Alright, so I was asked by a member to give a few comments on this thread, so here goes. (Also bear in mind I haven't trolled through the whole 18 pages)

 

These threads pop up all the time and by this stage I'm starting to realise that I may just need to create a standard, one thing fits all answer that I can just copy and paste on here every 3-4 months.

 

So, my perspective on whether I think I could land a 737NG in the real world if push came to shove, then without a doubt my answer would be no. Now, also keep in mind that I actually fly for a living, that I've flown the 737CL for over 4 years (albeit 19 years ago at this stage) and have in excess of 3,000 hours at pointy end of one, and more if you count the time on the ground, time spent in the sim and time spent working on them as an engineer. Keep that in mind, when you think you're capable of landing one, when you haven't even got a single hour under your belt.

 

The fact is, I wouldn't be comfortable landing any aircraft other than my own, (well perhaps a A340/A380 if needs be), without the accompaniment of a training Captain keeping an eye over me. So if that's the case for a pilot with 24 years sat at the front end of aircraft, then I don't know how the opinions of people who've only flown it in the sim can differ. There's a heck of a lot more to flying an aircraft than sitting there pushing buttons, a monkey could do that, it's a whole different ball game to actually fly the thing.

 

Now, with that being said, I'd rather have a simmer at the front than your average passenger, yee know where the auto-pilot is and have a rough grasp on how it works. I wouldn't give yee a snowballs chance in hell at hand flying the thing, but setting up for an auto-land should be within the reach of a decent chunk of yee.

 

How many of yee know where the PTT button is? Could yee actually get an incapacitated pilot out of the seat? Could you get into the flight deck even? What if the aircraft is now out of radio range, what channel do you tune? Can you work the WX radar? Do you even know where the checklist and QRH is stored on a flight deck? What if something is on the MEL, can you review the tech log?

 

Then it comes to the fact that flying in real life is a totally different experience to flying in FS. There are bumps, bangs, shaking, the controls feel nothing like your Saitek yoke or Logitek side-stick.

 

I think it's a very cocky attitude to take that you could fly a airplane like this with no training, when even pilots who've been doing this for years wouldn't do it lightly.

 

Regards,

Ró.

[TurboTomato 90]

Good post Ró.

[cva1077 68]

Well said Ró. It's about time this thread had a real airliner pilot's imput.

 

I've been waiting for someone to post something similar but no-one has so I took it upon my self to do it

[OzWhitey 3,353]

Hi Ro, it is always good to read your posts, and I was hoping you'd add your thoughts here too. However, I feel that you have assumed a that this thread adds little to the world, whereas I have found it quite enlightening. So to save you from having to read everything, I have responded at some length.

 

Do not assume all 'I can fly the 737' threads are created equal! There are some excellent points here from both the 'skeptics' and the 'optimists' - and a lot of posts from people with flying experience too. If you do decide to read, you are free to skip the bits about nappies and burritos

 

So, my perspective on whether I think I could land a 737NG in the real world if push came to shove, then without a doubt my answer would be no. Now, also keep in mind that I actually fly for a living, that I've flown the 737CL for over 4 years (albeit 19 years ago at this stage) and have in excess of 3,000 hours at pointy end of one, and more if you count the time on the ground, time spent in the sim and time spent working on them as an engineer. Keep that in mind, when you think you're capable of landing one, when you haven't even got a single hour under your belt.

 

 

We have (mainly) been discussing here the possibility of a highly-experienced NGX-trained simmer performing an approach and landing in a 737NG. Note that we are not talking about an average member of the public who has played FSX. There are a substantial number of forum members here who have studied the NGX in exquisite detail and routinely fly with full RW procedures. The NGX is a home simulation of unprecendented veracity when compared to its real world counterpart.

 

It therefore becomes a valid point to consider which skills these individuals have learned during their simulation-based training, and which (if any) necessary skills they have failed to learn.

 

I personally feel that many of the 'pessimist' responses rely on decreasing the skill level of the simmer, changing the aircraft, removing autoflight from the equation or adding extra emergencies to the scenario. All of these factors will change the likelihood of success (eventually reaching zero as you add more). I think it is more edifying to keep the scenario standard - and then discuss the strengths and weaknesses of the NGX derived skill-set.

 

So with regards to your comments:

 

I am suprised that you said "could (I) land a 737NG in the real world if push came to shove, then without a doubt my answer would be no." The answer for you, as an experienced commercial pilot would surely be 'probably yes, but with an unacceptable chance of failure, so I would not like to try in the real world.' We have seen in this thread video of a simmer with no RW experience landing a level-D sim whilst hand flying. So the chance of success for any pilot is clearly well above the zero percent you suggest.

 

With regards to navigation and landing the plane, I have suggested that the safest and easiest way would be to rely entirely on inputs through the CDU/FMC and MCP. This area - systems management - is where I propose a serious NGX-trained simmer woudl have strong skills.

 

I would not expect a pilot type-rated on a different aircraft - the 737 classic or an airbus, for example - to be familiar with the NG's autoflight systems to any great degree of confidence. I would hypothesise that RW 737CL experience plus full NGX mastery would be a powerful combination.

 

The fact is, I wouldn't be comfortable landing any aircraft other than my own, (well perhaps a A340/A380 if needs be), without the accompaniment of a training Captain keeping an eye over me. So if that's the case for a pilot with 24 years sat at the front end of aircraft, then I don't know how the opinions of people who've only flown it in the sim can differ. There's a heck of a lot more to flying an aircraft than sitting there pushing buttons, a monkey could do that, it's a whole different ball game to actually fly the thing.

 

 

I can think of only one poster in 400 who has been 'confident' of landing the NG. No one is suggesting that this is remotely a 'good idea'. It is more a theoretical question of: 'What, if any, is the skill that a fully NGX-trained simmer is lacking to land the plane'. Thus, any substantial difference in the real NG's MCP and CDU functions would render the simmer unable to complete the task. As far as I can determine, PMDG has modeled the systems closely enough that the real world Boeing manuals work for almost all functions. I do not think there is anything critical that differs, but have asked anyone who disagrees to post why.

 

The 'pushing buttons is not real flying' arguement has come up regularly, and I think is misleading, at least with regards to the scenario being discussed. Much of modern ATP flying is systems management. Most readers will be familiar with the future proposed 'Dog and Pilot' cockpit. Whilst one might disagree that this is a good thing, the reality is that an NG should be well controllable with the MCP and CDU for most/all of what you want to do (as a 'stand-in' pilot in our hypothetical emergency scenario). The skill to use these devices is a very specific one - one not picked up by being a PPL GA flyer, and one where only some concepts would be known by an ATP trained in a different manufacturer's aircraft.

 

Simulation-based training on a hi-verisimilitude home computer based trainer should be effective for systems and procedures learning. Conversely, FSX-based simulation is not famed for teaching hand-flying techniques well for GA - and I have no reason to think the situation would be better with regards to a 737. Therefore, an NGX-trained simmer would rapidly increase their chance of inadvertant failure the more the yoke was used.

 

How many of yee know where the PTT button is? Could yee actually get an incapacitated pilot out of the seat? Could you get into the flight deck even? What if the aircraft is now out of radio range, what channel do you tune? Can you work the WX radar? Do you even know where the checklist and QRH is stored on a flight deck? What if something is on the MEL, can you review the tech log?

 

 

Most highly-experienced simmers know the real 737 yoke pretty well - so I think they could find the PTT. Whilst this came up previously and is, I think, not a likely issue, the fact remains that this is an important point.

 

If your only NGX experience is via mouse, you are going to struggle. The more you have trained using realistic hardware (as many Avsimmers do), the more likely you are to be able to realistically translate your sim skills into real skills.

 

As for the others:

• Pilot out of seat - yes, I think we could do that but not relevant to simulation training or the scenario
  
• Could you get into the flight deck even? - i think we're all happy not to discuss security-related questions, as this is a purely-hypothetical scenrio that none of the simmers in the audience will ever actually face
  
• What if the aircraft is now out of radio range, what channel do you tune? - some good discusion of this earlier in the thread. (Btw, I'm sure I'm not the only simmer who keeps a decent set of Ipad airport data and approach plates on me when flying commercial!)
  
• Can you work the WX radar? No, if that is necessary we are dead. Thankyou, PMDG.
  
• Do you even know where the checklist and QRH is stored on a flight deck? What if something is on the MEL, can you review the tech log? The most serious simmers are highly familiar with normal and probably non-normal checklists. The practical aspects of sitting on a flight deck for the first time would be of some concern when finding things not used in the virtual cockpit. Do you hide the QRH that well, though? Aircraft would have met MEL to flying so this is a secondary consideration I feel in the circumstances.
  
• I think these points are all somewhat tangential to the primary scenario and concepts being discussed.
  

Then it comes to the fact that flying in real life is a totally different experience to flying in FS. There are bumps, bangs, shaking, the controls feel nothing like your Saitek yoke or Logitek side-stick.

 

I think it's a very cocky attitude to take that you could fly a airplane like this with no training, when even pilots who've been doing this for years wouldn't do it lightly.

 

Regards,

Ró.

 

 

There are always differences betwen reality and simulation. If this prevented learning from simulation we would not use this teaching modality. The question is what are the differences, and how can the training be modified to make it more applicable to the real world? With regards to the systems of the NGX, I believe that PMDG have done a fine job of modelling reality.

 

With full regard for your many thousand of hours 'up front' - and my thanks for your contribution to this thread.

 

Regards,

 

Rob

[Eric Tomlin 10]

One problem with these debates is that the verisimilitude of the simulation does depend on the hardware - as it always does with any sim.

 

If you're flying fsx with a mouse, it's probably not much of a sim. If you've got a full home cockpit, muscle memory as described earlier is going to be pretty good.

 

I fly with a basic home cockpit. I always use a yoke and rudder pedals. All things being equal, the quality of my simulation-based training is better than the guy with the mouse, but not as good as the chap with the full ng home cockpit build.

 

It then depends on what you do with the program. If you're doing 'silly' stuff (barrel rolls and cfit for lols) - you're back at the game end of the spectrum - even in the full home cockpit.

 

But decent hardware and the right mindset means you can certainly learn something. The interesting questions is what you can learn.

 

This is what I've been trying to convey- maybe I did not do a good job of that.