Well, Krazyk and Cactus, I get you, and I agree to a certain extent, about this incident, it is not keeping me away from India, just from indian airlines

 

I have been all over the world, but India has never tempted me, as well as a few countries in Africa. I have friends and associates that have travelled extensively in India and they all say the same, don't go if you don't have to.

 

But then again, each of their own

@karan, while I agree with you whole heartedly on the possibility of AI "getting away" with it and the likelihood of the investigation and its findings being not all together transparent, I was only trying to make a point that lets not take the media version as the absolute truth on the chain of events. Besides, all the transgressions you have posted are not alien to other airlines all over the world. Also, your comment regarding the pilot not knowing how to make manual entries for the route mentioned earlier does not pertain to Air India. It was made by me regarding a suitability check on a European Captain who had applied to 9W for a job. So please read and understand the context before you post. I am not trying to defend what happened up there or what goes on in Air India or any other airline for that matter. I am only trying to say that media reporting, especially in popular mass media on Aviation matters is not something I give any credibility to.

@trevor, if you are indeed a lawyer as your username suggests, it is extremely rich that you would rather jump to conclusions than base any opinion on facts. Not sure if that applies or flies in a courtroom. Once again, if you found the Avherald article almost as interesting as you put it as the MM version by reading between the lines, then I guess you have already made up your mind as to what has happened on AI 333. Besides, Avherald is far more credible was my point than MM or ToI. I am not trying to say or assume what took place, just basing my opinion on media reporting quality.

 

Once again, my point is not to defend Air India. My point was dont take on face value what ToI or MM or The Sun or News Of The World and any such publication churn out, especially on Aviation Matters.  

 

Regards,

 

Dinshaw Parakh.

@Trevor, Karan, Ro, et al

 

Why dont you read this article first:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2279416/My-terror-27-000ft-Jet-door-blew-open-crew-plugged-gap-blankets-says-Briton.html

 

Now follow it up with this:

 

http://avherald.com/h?article=45dcf5b6&opt=0

 

 

Just to illustrate, the difference between tabloid reporting and Industry specific reporting.

 

Dinshaw.

Here is a post from pprune:

 

​

The inside dope. F/o on toilet break. As per SOP one C/C called in but invited to take P2 seat. Shortly after second C/c walks in , incredibly offered the P1 seat. Capt standing and teaching them how to fly a A-321 at 33000 ft. F/O comes back from toilet and all resume normal duties. Insiders say the F/O reported the matter to Flight Safety on arrival at DEL.
Capt Soni and the two c/c are under suspension.

 

 

Possibly the most accurate description of events.

 

Dinshaw.

Please, we all know pprune is no longer reliable either.  

 

Sorry Captdini but AI's story does not pass the smell test...  I have now heard the F/O disco'd the a/p but immediately reconnected but they were suspended because the C/C stayed too long on the FD. I have heard the PF and PNF were not in the cockpit, I have heard the PNF was "distracted" I have now heard that One C/C was in seat 2 and one C/C in seat 1...  

 

According to AI:  

"Based on a report that two cabin crew members were in the cockpit for a prolonged period on the flight, the airline management... summoned the cockpit and cabin crew for an enquiry.

"As the enquiry confirmed the overstay of the cabin crew in the cockpit, administrative action was taken against them and the pilot. They have been suspended pending the final enquiry of the incident."

The spokesman said that "due to distraction the co-pilot touched the auto-pilot disconnect button momentarily". "But the same was connected back," he added.

 

 

ANY WAY you cut it this is a blatant example of gross negligence....

captdini, on 04 May 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Also, your comment regarding the pilot not knowing how to make manual entries for the route mentioned earlier does not pertain to Air India. It was made by me regarding a suitability check on a European Captain who had applied to 9W for a job. So please read and understand the context before you post.

Apologies. I confused your post with Mathews.

 

As for MM and ToI, they've only brought my attention to an 'incident' - not the details of it. What I have personally seen and experienced at AI makes up 90% of my opinion or 'conclusion' about this carrier. The mass media organizations only cemented those opinions further by simply keeping this carrier in the limelight of all the wonderful things about AI.

 

 

captdini, on 04 May 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

Here is a post from pprune:

I agree with psolk about the credibility of pprune. Threads there are just as exaggerated as a local newspaper nowadays.

 

I'm not quite sure on AvHeralds sources (not denying its credibility), but if you are waiting for a detailed report from the DGCA or AI, then you must know that whatever you will read there will be just as pseudo as MM or ToI reports.

 

Either ways, all we can do is base our conclusions on past personal experiences and have a good laugh at what the DGCA or AI will (probably will not) publish about this 'incident' until you get a copy of the CVR from that flight.

 

 

Here is a post from pprune:

​
The inside dope. F/o on toilet break. As per SOP one C/C called in but invited to take P2 seat. Shortly after second C/c walks in , incredibly offered the P1 seat. Capt standing and teaching them how to fly a A-321 at 33000 ft. F/O comes back from toilet and all resume normal duties. Insiders say the F/O reported the matter to Flight Safety on arrival at DEL.
Capt Soni and the two c/c are under suspension.

Possibly the most accurate description of events.

Dinshaw.

Hello Dinshaw,

This sounds much more realistic.

I mentioned the incident to one of my friends who is captain with a major airline.
His reaction :

quote
"how could two flight attendants handle the radio communications if left alone in the cockpit for 40 minutes? There MUST have been some communication taking place in that time frame and I don't see how a FA could have handled that."
unquote

So the story is still shocking but part of it seems exaggerated.

Rgds,

Bruno

 

 

quote
"how could two flight attendants handle the radio communications if left alone in the cockpit for 40 minutes? There MUST have been some communication taking place in that time frame and I don't see how a FA could have handled that."
unquote

 

They can blame that on shoddy wiring of their radio equipment like before. Haha. Sorry, couldn't resist.

Apparently, Air India are going to make it co policy that they have an avid flight simmer on every flight and they must own at least one PMDG product....;-)

 

I'm going to be on vacation in India this summer, I expect to possibly be flying on some Indian 737NG's or A320s for the intercontinental travels.  I have the NG's procedures down pat, thanks to PMDG, but I'm a little rusty on the airbus, may need to practice just in case :lol:

 

Regarding the corruption in India's airline industry, graft and bribes are pretty much a known fact for the airlines and just about all business in India, and it sickens me.   I faintly remember hearing about a pilot landing an Airbus on its nose wheel first, and I was astonished that someone could make it into the cockpit who be so careless and stupid.   Here's the link: http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-04-17/world/35262016_1_parminder-kaur-gulati-pilot-licenses-indian-pilot

To all the Air India and Indian Aviation bashers, looks like the Americas are following suit 

 

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5764712/

 

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=46250b07&opt=0

 

Dinshaw.

This sort of thing shocks Joe Public's trust in the aviation sector.   The sad thing is that this sort of thing is encouraged in a way by a thing that can be a pilot's best friend or his enemy depending on how it is monitored and applied - automation.

 

Many years ago, a 727 training captain at Lufthansa was in the process of being transferred from the trusty old 727 to the super high tech new A320.   After receiving some instruction, the instructor turned around in his seat and told the 727 veteran pilot that "this is so easy a schoolboy can do it!"   Needless to say, the 727 veteran was not impressed!

 

If you think that these types of incidents, which includes incidents of similar and sightly different nature, do yourself a favour - read "Black Box" by N. Faith and "Flying Into Danger".   This will give you an idea of the reliance on automation and the havoc it can cause if not monitored properly.   Most of all though, it should give you an insight into that one thing that plays a role in almost all accidents - the human factor, in the end, these guys and girls are human beings and they are fallible. 

 

Another source of good reading material for the public is CHIRP, the British publication where pilots can complain anonymously about the pressures on them and what the industry sometimes do not want the public to know about.   Take for instance the pilot who complained about the fact that they were warned to inform the airline if they had sinus problems, but then when they do the airlines are putting pressure on them in such a way that it makes it difficult for them to sit the flight out or go off sick.  

 

What happened here is an aberration and hopefully the airline industry will work harder and harder to stamp this sort of thing out.   Just glad nobody was injured or killed in this utter disregard for safety and procedures!

 

Kind regards

To all the Air India and Indian Aviation bashers, looks like the Americas are following suit 

 

Dinshaw.

 

That is TAM  TAM Linhas Aéreas is the Brazilian brand of LATAM Airlines group. The merger of TAM with LAN was completed on June 22, 2012. The company is currently the largest Brazilian airline.

So unless you mean Americas as in South America as in Brazil which is known for being some of the unsafest flying conditions in the world I am not sure what your point is...  What happens in Brazil doesn't change what happened in India.

That is TAM  TAM Linhas Aéreas is the Brazilian brand of LATAM Airlines group. The merger of TAM with LAN was completed on June 22, 2012. The company is currently the largest Brazilian airline.

So unless you mean Americas as in South America as in Brazil which is known for being some of the unsafest flying conditions in the world I am not sure what your point is...  What happens in Brazil doesn't change what happened in India.

 

Dont worry, I know exactly what TAM is and where they fly.

 

It is also very clear what I mean. The Americas comprise the lands of North and South America and their respective countries. If you go back to the post somebody alluded to countries in the "Eastern World". That is why I said "The Americas", which term means countries and their lands in the Western Hemisphere. If you are inferring that I was trying to take a potshot at a certain country in "The Americas", trust me I was not. If I were to, I would have mentioned the country by name. Besides, I did try to edit my earlier post by changing "The Americas" to Western World, and hit save changes, but for some reason it did not, obviously. I hope that is clear psolk. An 'S' after the word America can make a world of difference in meaning

 

Dinshaw.

Dont worry, I know exactly what TAM is and where they fly.

 

It is also very clear what I mean. The Americas comprise the lands of North and South America and their respective countries. If you go back to the post somebody alluded to countries in the "Eastern World". That is why I said "The Americas", which term means countries and their lands in the Western Hemisphere. If you are inferring that I was trying to take a potshot at a certain country in "The Americas", trust me I was not. If I were to, I would have mentioned the country by name. Besides, I did try to edit my earlier post by changing "The Americas" to Western World, and hit save changes, but for some reason it did not, obviously. I hope that is clear psolk. An 'S' after the word America can make a world of difference in meaning

 

Dinshaw.

It won't let you edit it because of one of the links in your original post for some reason... I couldn't even reply until I moved your original links... Weird...

 

To your point, , yes I understood what you were saying, just having a poke and yes these things happen on both sides of the hemisphere but do you argue these issues seem to pop up much more frequently in one hemisphere than the other? (excluding Air France of course :Big Grin: ) Now it looks like even the Lion Air incident is pure pilot error. That one would be on your side of the world right :biggrin: