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Piotr007

No vectors to final on the MD-11 flights, how to add them?

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Hi guys,

 

I am still learning to fly this beauty, as it is my favourite.

 

I perfectly handled the last flights without the vectors to final, because I thought the FMC would, after entered the right STAR and the TRANSITION and RUNWAY, add the needed waypoints to

guide my heavy safe and well to the localizer.

 

EIDW/KJFK

 

My last flight with the Md-11 was a horror unfortunately. I have the charts of KJFK airport of course. As I approached from the north from ASPEN and KBOS, flying the PARCH1 STAR, I got the runway 13L ILS assigned from the ATC due to winds from the east. So I entered RWY 13L.

 

So I came from the north northeast, then I suddenly realised that the FMC entered TELEX as the next wayoint after ROBER. But TELEX lies ON TOP of the glideslope. So as I armed the approach after setting everything into landing config, I suddenly realised that I was too close, too high and my MD-11 was of course almost stalling because I made a 140 degree turn on AP with approach Vref speeds.

 

I f.....d it up, I knew it! The first time actually!

 

My important (please help me) question is:

 

How do I automatically add the vectors to final, in order to have a good approach?? Honestly, I have no idea. The same is for the other aircraft not only the MD-11.

Often I entered the vectors manually. But surely there is the right way around that?

 

So more clearly formulated, how do I prevent my airplanes to fly directly onto the waypoint on the glideslope, but to let them follow the vectors to these last points and onto the glideslope, after capturing the LOC. Of course this is not happening right now!

 

 

Thanks in advance for your replies.

 

 

Best regards,

 

Schnautz

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Vectors in Aviation usually refer to Air Traffic Controllers saying things like "Turn left heading 270" and you leaving LNAV mode and setting Heading Select mode.

 

Not an FMC thing (indeed, it's removing FMS control of the aircraft and directly interfacing with the heading).

 

What you seem to be wanting to do is build an approach out of manually inserted waypoints. Place/Bearing/Distance waypoints might be a thing to look into. Also manually inserting some crossing restrictions may be useful(ie pass a point on the centreline 12 miles from touchdown at 3000ft). Note that you may need to convert to the above method (MCP heading) if flying online (ie VATSIM) with ATC present. (ie when they say "Turn left heading 270")

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Can't speak to the md11, but for the 737ngx there is sometimes a transition point for an ils approach further out from the final approach fix. Atc in fsx will also give you vectors to the ils. You can also fly the pattern like you would a small ga aircraft. Get to pattern altitude which for jets is 1500 agl and below 200 knots. Use heading select on autopilot, fly downwind, base, final. You should see the runway and final approach fix on your moving map. Line up your heading bug to that fix when you turn onto final. You can use ils frequency to assist as well and use approach autopilot to stay on glide slope.

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I found it rather ennoying that the PMDG MD-11 does not show all of the vectorpoints on approach. I added a waypoint as a FIX of course. But those digited waypoints such as FI16 or EH569, they do not occur in the MD-11 WPT.

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The way I vector usually aircrafts in VATSIM air traffic control tower is to vector them to extended downwind leg. Also If I vector myself. I just engage my autopilot about 3-5nm right or left from extended centerline and turn my aircraft into completely opposite way that the runway is. When I feel good I turn my aircraft into base and after that to ILS.

 

I think that is the most common way to give aircraft move track miles for descend or to reach approach speed. Sometimes extended downwind is also used to make separation. So the key phrase is: leave LNAV and activate Heading mode. 

 

Nicra

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I found it rather ennoying that the PMDG MD-11 does not show all of the vectorpoints on approach. I added a waypoint as a FIX of course. But those digited waypoints such as FI16 or EH569, they do not occur in the MD-11 WPT.

If the STAR finishes at a point where in the real world you would be vectored by ATC to finals (as in the PARCH1 STAR which ends at JFK VOR for the 13 rwys), what exactly are you expecting the MD-11 to show you ?

 

The whole point of vectors is that there are no waypoints to follow, as others have pointed out, you would be under ATC heading instructions. This is no different to landing at an airport which has no STARs or approach pattern at all.

 

Peter

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You fly an assigned vector by dialing in the heading and pulling the HDG knob, when/if you need to get back to FMS NAV just press the NAV button below the HDG knob.

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Something that often gets overlooked by a lot of simmers who are convinced they need to be doing everything with the MCDU is that it is often a much better solution to just take over manually. Once ATC starts vectoring you, you really don't need the MCDU and magenta line - just pull the heading and altitude knobs and set them to the heading and altitude ATC gives you.

There is no way on either a Boeing 7x7 or an MD-11 for the pilots to manually enter a "vectors" leg - some STARs have them coded into the procedure in the navdata however. It's becoming a lot more common to see the newer RNAV STARs that "self vector" straight onto the approach with no need for any ATC vectoring too.

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Right on Ryan, if I have the time, if I get a long vectored route outside a STAR, workload permits and if relevant, I usually edit my path so that the FMS's vertical path reflect reality as much as possible, and as allways, go DCT is your friend.

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Thank you for all the replies guys!

 

I was getting a bit too comfortable with the automatization of the MD-11. I love this plane, it is so easy to fly.

I based this question on the tutorial flight EGLL-LSZH, where the automatization was used as much as possible. Thus flying

on NAV hold switch onto the approach of LSZH at approx. 4.000 feet or so.

 

Either I let the ATC vector met at the end of the leg. Or I dial a fix in the FMC to vector me as good as possible. Because it is possible.

 

Thanks.

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How do I automatically add the vectors to final, in order to have a good approach??

I'll add to what everyone is saying, and also add in a little information:

First, vectors are assigned by ATC on a demand basis. The do not come from the pilot, or the FMC, or anywhere else - only ATC. As such, anything related to vectors means that it should not be in the FMC (unless it is hard programmed in the database, which as Ryan mentioned, is not possible for the pilot to do). ATC is expecting you to follow their commands with heading changes when on vectors, so the appropriate AP mode would be HDG SEL.

 

The use of HDG SEL is extremely important because we need you to fly a heading, not a track. If you tell the FMC to follow the NAV path, the NAV path uses fixed points, and the FMC will correct for wind. When on HDG SEL, the plane simply flies a heading and does not compensate for wind. The controller is compensating for the wind. Occasionally, he or she won't compensate for wind at all, but since the wind is effecting each aircraft the same way, it doesn't much matter. It does matter, however, if everyone else is flying heading 180, and drifting east because of the wind, and you're tracking 180, not drifting at all.

 

Vectors are on HDG SEL - ALWAYS.

 

 

 

 

As far as JFK goes, the reason most of the STARs dump at what most would consider odd points, at odd altitudes, is that the TRACON there uses vectors heavily for sequencing and handling the volume. Because EWR, LGA, and JFK are so close to each other, with a very high volume of traffic, there is absolutely no way traffic can flow efficiently and safely with everyone simply following the magenta line. Speeds are too diverse, aircraft wake categories are too diverse, and flight paths would cross too much. Moreover, those flight paths change dramatically, depending on what runways are in use (considering all three facilities).

 

In your case, when they're using ILS 13 (which they will only use if absolutely necessary*), they vector off of ROBER, out over the Atlantic, then somewhat towards the Colts Neck VOR, and then up the Hudson (in shared airspace) for a late hook onto the ILS approximately over Manhattan.

 

*ILS 13L at JFK is by far one of the worst case scenarios in the entire United States National Airspace System. The ILS 13L forces LGA into using their ILS 13, which crosses EWR's departure or arrival path, and also messes up TEB (crossing right over it). As such, they avoid it at all costs, unless the weather is particularly bad, with wind that heavily favors the 13s. Even if the weather is low, if the winds aren't blowing over about 20 or so, straight down the 13s, you're getting the 22s. If the wind does favor the 13s, but the weather isn't particularly low, you're getting the visual, or the VOR approach, as it affects LGA less, and doesn't cause the ripple effect of doom.

 

The NY Area is a very complex chunk of airspace. You're not going to magenta line it from your departure airfield to a NY airfield. It's just not gonna happen. Don't become a slave to your automation: fly the plane.

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