Unless the code for Joe and Marty's Squawkbox and ATC clients and the server itself have been COMPLETELY re-written and do not use any of that legacy code, paying for access can never happen. It is precluded in the licenses for those three systems.

 

The last time I was on one of the systems (to be unnamed), I used a European route with a flight plan taken directly from FlightAware for the exact flight that I wanted to fly. I put that into my flightplan and submitted it. I was promptly informed by the controller that is was not a proper flight plan because the route was "not approved". By whom? Anyway, that was the last time I logged on for "real" ATC control. I don't have the time to screw around with that kind of stuff, and if I were asked to pay to be dealt with that way, I would not bother, even if the licenses allowed it.

Did you ask him why it was not approved ? Actually 99% of the controllers and pilots are very kind and good to talk to for whatever problem. You really shouldn't judge the whole system by one unpleasant experience. Otherwise i would have quitted thi simmer communities ages ago

 

btw, where do you finf european routes on Flightaware, i think they only provide US-routes.

Did you ask him why it was not approved ? Actually 99% of the controllers and pilots are very kind and good to talk to for whatever problem. You really shouldn't judge the whole system by one unpleasant experience. Otherwise i would have quitted thi simmer communities ages ago

 

btw, where do you finf european routes on Flightaware, i think they only provide US-routes.

 

Re Flight Aware; if you select a flight from say EGLL to KDEN, you can find the route that the flight takes and provides the waypoints for input for your FMC. Not all European flights are shown but enough to select from. "I shouldn't judge the whole system..."; I don't know if you know the history of Joe and Marty's efforts, but long before there was VATSIM or SATCO and IVAO for that matter, AVSIM provided servers for online flight to the community. We did that both in the developmental stage of the systems and later, after it was evolving into a larger component of our community's flying activities. AVSIM set up our first servers in 1997 / 8... I would venture to say that I am in a pretty good position to judge what I am willing to tolerate or not and whether or not I needed "an approved route". As I said, I don't have time to screw with arguing with someone about whether a flight is "approved" or not.

btw, where do you finf european routes on Flightaware, i think they only provide US-routes.

 

 

This is a screen capture of activity out of EDDF taken just 3 minutes ago. I suggest you explore Flight Aware a bit. Click on the flight IDENT  and it will show you the details, including the routing of the flight:

 

 

 

Here's the routing for Virgin #26 from KJFK to EGLL which as I write this is enroute.

 

MERIT HFD PUT ALLEX VIXUN LOGSU 4900N 05000W 5100N 04000W 5100N 03000W 5100N 02000W ADARA LEKVA EVRIN UL607 NUMPO UP2 OKESI Y3 BEDEK

 

 

That made my day...

Heathrow tower: Speed bird 40F surface wind 240 degrees at 11 knots, cleared to land 27R... £5 please!

Speed bird 40F: What!!... 5 quid? That's it, I'm diverting mate!

 

I assume(hope) you're not taking me literally here.  But this is funny. 

 

Anyway, that's why I put the "landing fees" in quotes.  It wouldn't be literally where you'd pay upon landing but rather a monthly subscription or something along those lines.

 

 

 

Unless the code for Joe and Marty's Squawkbox and ATC clients and the server itself have been COMPLETELY re-written and do not use any of that legacy code, paying for access can never happen. It is precluded in the licenses for those three systems.

 

I didn't realize this.  Yeah, then that would make a "pay for usage" type scenario pretty difficult.

Re Flight Aware; if you select a flight from say EGLL to KDEN, you can find the route that the flight takes and provides the waypoints for input for your FMC. Not all European flights are shown but enough to select from. "I shouldn't judge the whole system..."; I don't know if you know the history of Joe and Marty's efforts, but long before there was VATSIM or SATCO and IVAO for that matter, AVSIM provided servers for online flight to the community. We did that both in the developmental stage of the systems and later, after it was evolving into a larger component of our community's flying activities. AVSIM set up our first servers in 1997 / 8... I would venture to say that I am in a pretty good position to judge what I am willing to tolerate or not and whether or not I needed "an approved route". As I said, I don't have time to screw with arguing with someone about whether a flight is "approved" or not.

 

 

 

This is a screen capture of activity out of EDDF taken just 3 minutes ago. I suggest you explore Flight Aware a bit. Click on the flight IDENT and it will show you the details, including the routing of the flight:

 

ScreenHunter_01 Jul. 22 12.33.jpg

Here's the routing for Virgin #26 from KJFK to EGLL which as I write this is enroute.

 

MERIT HFD PUT ALLEX VIXUN LOGSU 4900N 05000W 5100N 04000W 5100N 03000W 5100N 02000W ADARA LEKVA EVRIN UL607 NUMPO UP2 OKESI Y3 BEDEK

 

You are absolutely right - routes are provided from routes from America to Europe or the other way around. But not within.

 

And sorry to not agree. Both IVAO and VATSIM are about "real fligh procedures" and therefore every division has its own rules/SOP (just like the real ATC/Airlines), so you won't be able to fly whatever you think is right. But im sure if you talk to the controller and tell him what you think is wrong things can be sorted out. At least it works for me and hundreds of other users.

Of course it is up to you where you want to fly and how. if you decided to leave the community because it is not your thing, no problem.

 

Btw, there is already a  pay-to-fly-online project, it does however only cover the area between roughly KLAX and KLAS. http://www.pilotedge.net/

 

 

But not within.

 

Not correct; take a look and view the activity out of EDDF as I showed in the image. It includes internal European flights.

I assume(hope) you're not taking me literally here.  But this is funny. 

 

Anyway, that's why I put the "landing fees" in quotes.  It wouldn't be literally where you'd pay upon landing but rather a monthly subscription or something along those lines.

 

Just for sacarsm...

Not correct; take a look and view the activity out of EDDF as I showed in the image. It includes internal European flights.

Sorry to be picky, but i checked every flight you showed in the picture. The only flights that have a route provided (i mean somthing like "TAFFY ENE ASPEN PVD TRAIT PARCH PARCH1", not just EGLL-EDDT, since this is useless for online flying) are DAL15, DLH400 and DLH415 because they originate or fly to the US. I wish Flightaware would provide routes also for european routes, but im afraid they dont... Please show me an example of a flight within europe and a detailed route and i immediately surrender ^_^

Maybe you have some kind of premium account, but i have a usual registered account and dont see any detailed european routes.

Sorry to be picky, but i checked every flight you showed in the picture. The only flights that have a route provided (i mean somthing like "TAFFY ENE ASPEN PVD TRAIT PARCH PARCH1", not just EGLL-EDDT, since this is useless for online flying) are DAL15, DLH400 and DLH415 because they originate or fly to the US. I wish Flightaware would provide routes also for european routes, but im afraid they dont... Please show me an example of a flight within europe and a detailed route and i immediately surrender ^_^

Maybe you have some kind of premium account, but i have a usual registered account and dont see any detailed european routes.

Correct. Flight Aware is for US (domestic, international in/out). For other countries domestic you need to go to those sites: I.E: http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadcms/eadsite/index.php.html http://www.eurofpl.eu/ http://www.ais.org.uk/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=1&Itemid=2.html http://aviadocs.net/AIP/html/eng.htm http://www.navcanada.ca/NavCanada.asp?Language=en&Content=ContentDefinitionFiles\Publications\AeronauticalInfoProducts\default.xml

 

Simroutes is another great resource for flight planning: http://www.simroutes.com/fb2/showplans.aspx

 

You can also check the individual VATSIM divisions web sites as they often have links to their preferred routes. VATSIM ARTCCs and FIRs often have SOPs which is why you might get a controller who doesn't like your flight plan. They will usually provide you with an alternate route to use. They do this to try and decrease workload for their neighboring ARTCCs and FIRs as well as try and be real world to match the real facility procedures.

 

Hope this helps.

Correct. Flight Aware is for US (domestic, international in/out). For other countries domestic you need to go to those sites: I.E: http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadcms/eadsite/index.php.html http://www.eurofpl.eu/ http://www.ais.org.uk/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=1&Itemid=2.html http://aviadocs.net/AIP/html/eng.htm http://www.navcanada.ca/NavCanada.asp?Language=en&Content=ContentDefinitionFiles\Publications\AeronauticalInfoProducts\default.xml

 

Simroutes is another great resource for flight planning: http://www.simroutes.com/fb2/showplans.aspx

 

You can also check the individual VATSIM divisions web sites as they often have links to their preferred routes. VATSIM ARTCCs and FIRs often have SOPs which is why you might get a controller who doesn't like your flight plan. They will usually provide you with an alternate route to use. They do this to try and decrease workload for their neighboring ARTCCs and FIRs as well as try and be real world to match the real facility procedures.

 

Hope this helps.

Exactly. And dont forget www.vatroute.net for routesin west-central europe. These are all regularly CFMU-validated.

I love to fly online when there is good coverage. I usually check my flight plan on Vroute then see what the coverage is like on it.

I've not got anything but good things to say about the controllers I've experienced on VATSIM Europe especially in the UK. When I was first stating out they were very good with me and helped me out when I needed it. I've not had much experience over the pond so can't really comment on the controllers over there but I'm sure they're just as good.

Definitely gets your heart pounding a bit when you're online and I'd advise any newcomer to make sure you have a pen and paper handy to jot down notes and instructions as they come at you pretty fast.

Gavin