Just bought it. I am impressed: the elevator is supremely good, and 200% better than default Cessna. Now I can take off and land normally, and actually pull or push on the yoke to a significant extent without crashing because of control hyper-sensitivity. The default MSFS a/c are all fairly good, but when you get this, you realize that good commercial product beats the pants off the default models.JS

I'm sorry JS but coming from someone who has real time in the Cessna 152,172, and 182, the default birds beat the pants off any add-on I

So Lou has never flown a 172 or anyonme else who helped develope the flight 172??? What makes your opinion sound so dogmatic? I have a good friend who by the way flew for Dragon Air (Scrarebus) is type rated on many aircraft and thinks the 172 is very very good compared to the ones he has flown. Now that's HIS opinion, he is also a avid simmer but still just his opinion right? These things don't actually *fly*, we all know thats one area that we cannot "learn" and should not learn from flight sim. Push this button does.....This much RPM should give us this rate of......etc etc but saying sujective things about "flight modelling" (which by the way is as close as any other manual wise) is IMO meaningless. IMO the default Cessna is silly why? It's plain ugly and since it would not be the thing I would be learning how to fly one of those puppies on I desire a awesome panel and VC to *fool* my mind into thinking my keyboard and monitor are really part of an aircraft ;D. The flight one is light years ahead of the default plane, to even mention them together is a sign of something else maybe? I mean we all have the default Cessna so it's like a shot against flight 1 no?Best Wishes,[h4]Randy J. Smith[/h4]http://www.rawbw.com/~bdoolin/shinault/southparkcartmad.gif[h3]PMDG 747![/h3]Caution! Not a real pilot, but do play one on TV ;-)ASUS KV8 DLX | AMD 3200 64 | 1 GIG PC 3200 DDR | GIGABYTE 5700 ULTRA | ViewSonic VP192b 19" |

Hi Randy,Thank you for the kind compliments.Actually, Lou had nothing to do with the development of the 172R by Flight1. I did. So did Jerry Beckwith, Ed Struzynski, Roger Dial and a handful of other beta testers that I count on and value very much. But I am sure Lou has enough time in 172's that he could give you a good assessment.Dilloll0 has had an axe to grind with us since day one and it is a personal which he seems to take every opportunity to share... one about night lighting. Although he was confused about what he wanted and what a real 172R has. The way we did the VC lighting dependency was and issue as well (which has been corrected in an upcoming patch) for some reason he has discredited the rest of the plane because of this issue. That

Sorry about that Jim, do not know your company structure too well. Just wanted to tell you that your panel is simply a work of art. Given me some ideas on my own developement for panels, now to purchase a descent camera ;-) You guys still releasing a professinal 172 for training real pilots? Best Wishes,[h4]Randy J. Smith[/h4]http://www.rawbw.com/~bdoolin/shinault/southparkcartmad.gif[h3]PMDG 747![/h3]Caution! Not a real pilot, but do play one on TV ;-)ASUS KV8 DLX | AMD 3200 64 | 1 GIG PC 3200 DDR | GIGABYTE 5700 ULTRA | ViewSonic VP192b 19" |

Yes, but it is part of a much more comprehensive package.And targeted to a different market.Regards,Jim Rhoads

Hi, Jim:while you're in the neighborhood, I just want to add that the 172 really looks delightful inside and out. I adore the panels and pop-ups as well as the VC which is not just a work of art, but performs incredibly well in terms of fluidity and smoothness, etc. The whole thing works 101% right with my ever-expanding GoFlight setup too which is a nice bonus because I didn't know if your autopilot was going to be different from the default MSFS one. I am thrilled with the whole thing.This 172 is gonna be my light prop of choice from now on for a heap of VFR flying in areas I know and love. I will also use it for crosswind flying and other types of practice.Thanks for producing this sweetheart of a plane.Cheers!JS

Hi JSacks,From myself and the team members (all of them) :-) Thank you. Best,Jim Rhoads

Jim that

Hi Dilloll0Thank you for your comments and opinion.It is understood and respected. No need to continue making it.Best Regards,Jim Rhoads

Why do you guys (Lou included) feel I'm slamming you??? :-hmmm

>The 'control hyper-sensitivity' you have a problem with is>actually how the real aircraft feels in flight. Using the CH>Peddles & Yoke makes this more apparent than with a joystick. >After watching the MS video I'm now convinced the default>FDE's were designed for those using Peddle and Yoke>controllers. I felt like you when I was only using a joystick>with Flight Simulator (Microsoft Sidewinder 3Dpro to be exact)>The feel you get is really quite remarkable.>believe me go to your local airport and watch Cessna

This discussion presents to me a real dichotomy. One between the "good" Flight1 and the "evil" Flight1.Flight1, on the one hand, has an established track record producing some of the best add-ons available over the last few years. Their business ethic is generally quite good...and in the final analysis I keep going back to them because of that.But Flight1, through Jim Rhoads in particular, tends to label customers who dare to persist with legitimate complaints as "axe grinders" or F1 haters when the excuses don't quell their frustrations. That's what they call an "ad hominen" (to the person, rather than the issue) attack. If you can't deal effectively with the issue, then go for the other guy instead.Dillon has had some issues with F1 products, as have I, and Jim would have anyone who reads the forums that *he* controls believe that our issues fall to the level of "personal" ones. For example, the F1 Meridian has a standby altimeter which is off by a factor of 10...the pointer rotates around the gauge once per hundred feet instead of once per thousand feet. I first pointed out that problem in Nov 2003, and have complained about it repeatedly over the course of a year now to no avail. When I pointed out to Jim and F1 that they have essentially ignored my complaints, all I get is a heaping helping of developer vs. publisher mea culpa and no help with what I (and anyone who knows gauge programming) know is an easy...no, a TRIVIAL programming fix.Likewise, the Flight1 Cessna 421's engines will experience uncommanded shutdowns at high altitude airports due to a flaw in the FDE in FS2004...after a heated discussion and repeated suggestions that I should just not pull the throttles back to idle during landings and be happy, I got this same blast of "axe to grind" invective from Mr. Rhoads before they deleted every post...current and historical...referencing this problem with the C421 on their forum.I've not yet jumped on Flight1 for the fact that their new baby, the ATR 72, crashes to the desktop something like three out of every four attempted flights. Their development partners have delivered what could possibly some day be a real gem, albeit nearly a year after the hard-promised delivery date given at the 2003 AVSIM conference in Reading. But I'm sure that if I were to actually suggest that it's a really bad thing to have a payware add-on crash catastrophically most times you attempt to fly it...I would have "an axe to grind" rather than be accepted as a fairly experienced simmer, r/w pilot, and community contributor that quite simply knows better.Jim...Steve...F1...we like your work in general, but there's room for improvement. And continued dogged defense of altimeters that spin at 10x speed, engines that shut down when the throttles come back to idle, etc is not helping. To your credit, you haven't yet suggested that we just be happy flying the ATR without using it's crash-matic FMC...but at this point nothing would surprise me...RegardsBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Washington, DC

>The 'control hyper-sensitivity' you have a problem with is>actually how the real aircraft feels in flight. Using the CH>Peddles & Yoke makes this more apparent than with a joystick. >After watching the MS video I'm now convinced the default>FDE's were designed for those using Peddle and Yoke>controllers. I have to totally disagree with above statements.In my opinion whether joystick or yoke makes absolutely no difference as far as perceived flight dynamics are concerned.The experiment is simple - flying straight and level you pull on your controller and wait how long it takes for C172 to reach new attitude. So in effect you are measuring time to go from zero pitch to some finite pitch. In a default Cessna it happens so fast as if airplane was devoid of any mass. This is contrary to any C172 I ever flew in my real life. Skyhawk is not a 747 but still its inertia along all axis is measurable.It is not just the Skyhawk - all default MSFS that I tried suffer from exactly the same problem.You have been repeating the same statements about FS9's C172 feeling like "real" aircraft but I wonder how many hours you have in the real thing.So let me make this abanduntly clear:No, pitch in FS9's C172 does NOT feel like pitch in the real aircraftMichael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2

You have your opinion and I have mine... :-roll