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jcomm

Do we Love X-Plane? Don't we?

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For me, and for many of you, as Murmur pointed out on one of his posts on the 777 vs 777 thread, it is typical to get in this boat with lot's of enthusiasm, then start reading this and that about what really isn't, after all, what we would like it to be, then eventually finding out that after all there were some things we could do and see in our other simulator and are not ( yet ) availabe here... and, probably sooner than we could guess, we are writing posts were we state how disappointed we came to be after a while....

 

This happened to me, I wrote ( and still write ) such posts, I seldom email Austin because I guess he really must be busy because I am sure he's aware of the user complaints, and has competition in the horizon, and knows now is the tame to do something really good about X-Plane 10...

 

But!  But! But!   We keep forgetting that there was a major, probably not noticeable in terms of complexity for most of us, update in this X-Plane life cycle - the migration to 64 bit!

 

This pretty much set the future for X-plane. 

 

I can complaint about what I would like to have / feel / see in this simulator, but I do it most of the time because I "know" it'll ( sooner or later ) get addressed!

 

The scenery we can have in X-Plane is great. Yes there are no seasonal effects, and that is a limitation I strongly believe will not be addressed before the next version, or if addressed in some way it'll be by the hand of a 3pd, but again, the greatest advances in our other platform were also driven by 3pds!  ATC, Weather, AI, scenery, add-on aircraft, made FSX what it is today.

 

In X-Plane's world the ammount of add-ons on each of this areas can't compare. There are reasosn for that, but I tend to think that the complexity of dealing with it in X-plane is not the major one. Probably most of those who have their business made with add-ons for FSX / P3D don't even bother investing in this platform, while others have widened their scope ( Carenado, and still waiting for PMDG... )

 

We will probably have a good weather injector for X-Plane 10, by the makers of FSGRW. We will probably have a PMDG for X-Plane 10, and I am sure that even the guys at FF, after reading the comments from their users, will take care to implement features and fine tune their upcoming 757 in oreder not to fall in the same mistakes and expose themselves to the sometimes negative critics of their users...

 

I still believe X-Plane 10 can only become better!  That was also the purpose of that other thread I started a few days ago...

 

Im Love X-plane 10, and FSX, and DCS, and ELITE ....  Sometimes I hate all of them... Isn't that normal... Aren't we all just like that in our real lifes...

 

I certainly DON'T WANT X-Plane to end, just as MS FLIGHT did!!!!

 

 

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Good post, I honestly don't think we need to be worried about it development ending. Development is pretty active, although the team is small, they've managed to push the simulator forward in the past year by going 64Bit, and improving the scenery generation. Unfortunately they are neglecting lots of areas in the simulator such as the ATC, AI. I'm not sure what the next update will bring, but they need to sort out this, as promised back in the initial X-Plane 10 beta days.

 

What the developers need to do is actually listen to their users and not think "they know best". For example, I remember a big discussion about allowing the mousewheel to control dials. This "oversight" stops me using anything other than simple GA aircraft. I can't tune dials easily, and need to pause the sim sometimes just to change a frequency. However, they aren't budging on this one, thinking they know best, even after nearly every one in the comments argued against it. Make it a preference at least :/

 

What X-Plane badly need is third-party developers, companies like Opus, OrbX, PMDG, and A2A onboard. OrbX  (John Venema) are adament  they won't develop for X-Plane, as it's full of warts (in his own words) and I'm sure there are personal reasons behind it as well. PMDG are apparently developing something for X-Plane, and I don't know about any other major developers dipping their hands in.

 

Sometimes it feels like I'm the only one on the forum who won't be using and isn't excited for P3D v2. At the end of the day, it's still the same 32-Bit FSX engine with a restricted license, however most of my addons which make FSX work, I'm either expected to buy again and in some cases hack illegally to use. No thanks. An example is RealityXP, which doesn't work in P3D, and the license cost to use it is far too high.

 

However, even with the above issues, I still much prefer using X-Plane. I think the scenery looks better (and some amazing scenery is available for free, thinking of simheaven.com and osm2xp).

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I Love X-plane 10, and FSX, and DCS, and ELITE ....  Sometimes I hate all of them... Isn't that normal...
Yeah I guess that's normal. It's just that you love and hate flightsims a little more than the rest of us. Your passion for this hobby seems limitless  :lol:

 

 

 


I certainly DON'T WANT X-Plane to end, just as MS FLIGHT did!!!!
FSX also ended, but look at it still going. Even if XPX was to be the last X-Plane I think that would be the current flightsim with most potential and life ahead of it. I imagine 3pd's could make XPX relevant and shining for many many years to come.

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I'm in the same boat. As much as I complain I love flying XP. When the time comes and I'm sick of it I fly "something else", but I always return and enjoy my very good XP payware aircraft. The Fly J Sim Dash 8, the 727 and Peter's A320. It is useable at 10.2 and will mature. I wish all of my fellow simmers a nice weekend and nice flights.

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What the developers need to do is actually listen to their users and not think "they know best".

Very good point and I hope the devs take notice.

 

 

 

What X-Plane badly need is third-party developers, companies like Opus, OrbX, PMDG, and A2A onboard.

True. I have a hard time imagining ORBX ever going XPlane though after JV's statements. Dont think he's left the door open for anything there. Then again money talks. If XPX grabs the audience they'll have to. But XPlane doesnt need ORBX as badly as FSX does/did. You can achieve incredible results already with freeware in XPX. A2A and PMDG are very welcome though. 

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But XPlane doesnt need ORBX as badly as FSX does/did. You can achieve incredible results already with freeware in XPX.

 

+1.

Isn't ORBX now developing their landclass add on for FSX that X Plane already used from the get go aka OpenLC ? Having nibbled at the XP10 demo, entry of ORBX into that aspect of the flight simulator engine would only be detrimental, I presume. Personally, I'm happy to think ORBX isn't going to touch X Plane in that regard.

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For me, and for many of you, as Murmur pointed out on one of his posts on the 777 vs 777 thread, it is typical to get in this boat with lot's of enthusiasm, then start reading this and that about what really isn't, after all, what we would like it to be, then eventually finding out that after all there were some things we could do and see in our other simulator and are not ( yet ) availabe here... and, probably sooner than we could guess, we are writing posts were we state how disappointed we came to be after a while....

 

This happened to me, I wrote ( and still write ) such posts, I seldom email Austin because I guess he really must be busy because I am sure he's aware of the user complaints, and has competition in the horizon, and knows now is the tame to do something really good about X-Plane 10...

 

But!  But! But!   We keep forgetting that there was a major, probably not noticeable in terms of complexity for most of us, update in this X-Plane life cycle - the migration to 64 bit!

 

This pretty much set the future for X-plane. 

 

I can complaint about what I would like to have / feel / see in this simulator, but I do it most of the time because I "know" it'll ( sooner or later ) get addressed!

 

The scenery we can have in X-Plane is great. Yes there are no seasonal effects, and that is a limitation I strongly believe will not be addressed before the next version, or if addressed in some way it'll be by the hand of a 3pd, but again, the greatest advances in our other platform were also driven by 3pds!  ATC, Weather, AI, scenery, add-on aircraft, made FSX what it is today.

 

In X-Plane's world the ammount of add-ons on each of this areas can't compare. There are reasosn for that, but I tend to think that the complexity of dealing with it in X-plane is not the major one. Probably most of those who have their business made with add-ons for FSX / P3D don't even bother investing in this platform, while others have widened their scope ( Carenado, and still waiting for PMDG... )

 

We will probably have a good weather injector for X-Plane 10, by the makers of FSGRW. We will probably have a PMDG for X-Plane 10, and I am sure that even the guys at FF, after reading the comments from their users, will take care to implement features and fine tune their upcoming 757 in oreder not to fall in the same mistakes and expose themselves to the sometimes negative critics of their users...

 

I still believe X-Plane 10 can only become better!  That was also the purpose of that other thread I started a few days ago...

 

Im Love X-plane 10, and FSX, and DCS, and ELITE ....  Sometimes I hate all of them... Isn't that normal... Aren't we all just like that in our real lifes...

 

I certainly DON'T WANT X-Plane to end, just as MS FLIGHT did!!!!

 

Amen brother !!

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What the developers need to do is actually listen to their users and not think "they know best".

Maybe they do :rolleyes: ? Remember, you only see what you think might be best (and a handful of other opinions on the forums). While the developers might see thousands of different opinions ... and still have to find a way to find out, what would be the best thing to do next with a given amount of resources (and maybe even try to focus on long term - like it was done with 64bit) ... This can never please everybody ... but step-by-step, most things get addressed over time ...

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Maybe they do :rolleyes: ? Remember, you only see what you think might be best (and a handful of other opinions on the forums). While the developers might see thousands of different opinions ... and still have to find a way to find out, what would be the best thing to do next with a given amount of resources

 

In this particular instance, the reason given for not doing it was that a) It's bad design, b) The mousewheel is used for zooming. I respect that some things can't be done yet for technical reasons not given, but in this instance this isn't the case. It came across on Ben's blog as arrogance. I encourage everyone to read the post and comments here, http://developer.x-plane.com/2012/04/manipulators-and-the-scroll-wheel. This is a silly example, I agree, but these little things will help new users on X-Plane who are used to FSX. There are other examples, such as Austin removing the ability to fly the plane using the keyboard and annoying several users in the process, stating it as unrealistic (whereas flying with a mouse is realistic??).

 

I'm a developer myself, and if enough users of our software said they wanted something changing, and it was easy enough for me to do, I wouldn't think twice about doing it. You can't please everyone, but in most cases I deal with, we make them preferences/configuration changes. Just my two cents :-)

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I'd be interested to know the 'mission' of Austin and the core team, if you'll pardon the grotty management-speak. Are they hungry for sales / market share? Do they want to make the most realistic sim? Are they happy just to potter along as a cottage industry?

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I agree to Andras / alpilotx.

I also want to add that I find the observation quite funny that most of the threads in avsim's X-Plane forum are by the same 6, 7, 8 people constantly talking about why X-Plane is good, why FSX/P3D is maybe better, and what X-Plane needs.

My impression is that people constantly swapping between simulators, debating technical stuff, comparing things, finding issues, focusing on problems, growing their fear that XP development might end (which is totally unjustified; XP development did not end since 1993, and Laminar is NOT Microsoft.)

-- instead of just FLYING.

I know that this is natural, a human habit, and I have wasted days and weeks with the same things (and posts like these trying to re-focus people on flying instead "meta simming"), but it's not a useful one, because in the end it is wasting precious spare time. Spare time in which you could actually make the most out of the given aircraft.

I also wonder how many of us are really capable of _flying_ the simulated aircraft. Not programming a simulated 777 or Airbus. Not even cold-and-dark-starting a complex plane like the Saab 340.

 

Really _flying_ a simple C152 or C172 according to the rules. Are we good at the basic procedures? Do we follow the checklists? How good are our traffic circuits? Can we navigate confidently without the help of FMC or GPS?

 

And when flying the bigger planes: Are we prepared for emergencies, when we need to hand-fly a 777 or A320? Land it without FMC? Even without ILS?

 

And, last thing, in long-haul flights, do we actually _fly_ to experience the same mental challenges a real pilot would have? (Like staying awake, checking airspace and instruments even if you're over the ocean since hours, or during nights)? Or do we just put the autopilot on and go watching televison, shopping, sleeping?

To train these basic skills are what I am using flight simulations for, and these can all be done in X-Plane. (And I am really bad. :lol:  I was thinking I would do well -- until FSFlyingSchool showed me that I'm not.)

That's why I am also not waiting for better textures or for seasons or other nice-to-have things, but for a proper ATC. The lack of a good ATC and at the same time not having a proper 64-bit online flying capability spoils everything a bit.


However, it's all just my personal opinion and related to the reason why I use flight simulators.

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@Mario: And your point is please? I thought forums are for discussions? IMHO these 6-7 people enjoy the discussions. Even you do. Your last post was about how bad FSX is. Once again, in the XP forum the topic was turned into a "FSX is so bad" statement.

How's that instead of flying XP?

PS: Do not worry about the realism of my simulated flights. I use time compression and sometimes I start with engines running. Why? I have a family and have a job to do. A job that some might "play" with a 911 sim at at home. And I play flightsim. FSX and XP.

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@mario

 

It's the same people moaning/praising about FSX in every forum as well. Neither FSX or X-Plane feel real, and probably never will. I'd happily post on the xplane.org forum, but I've been banned and my IP blocked (for reasons I don't know why, I haven't even posted anything).

 

The longest flight I can do is about 2 hours, as I simply don't have all day to sit and watch a 777 fly on autopilot. Sometimes I will run through checklists, and other times I can't be bothered, and just want to fly around and enjoy the scenery. If I wanted that sort of realism, I'd go out and finish my PPL :-)

 

Plus you mention that people like to discuss/complain instead of flying. Well apart from actually using the simulator, another part of the experience for me as well is the community and discussions. Without such discussions and communities, my interest in flight simulation would have died out long ago.

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Even you do.

 

 

Which I clearly admitted:

 

 

I know that this is natural, a human habit, and I have wasted days and weeks with the same things (and posts like these trying to re-focus people on flying instead "meta simming"), but it's not a useful one, because in the end it is wasting precious spare time. Spare time in which you could actually make the most out of the given aircraft.

 

 

But:

 

Your last post was about how bad FSX is.

 

 

Where exactly? I have checked all the posts I have made in the last 2 weeks, and I don't know to which one you are referring.

 

My last post (besides the screenshot forum posts) was in the FF 777 vs. PMDG 777 thread, saying that both X-Plane and FSX use tables, and that tables are not bad if done in a good way.

 

The posts before that were asking for details about the differences of both 777 models, without any opinion.

 

If one of my recent statements can be read as "FSX is bad, XP is not", I surely have to re-phrase it, because such things are not my intention. But please tell me which one you mean.

 

 

 

 

PS: Do not worry about the realism of my simulated flights. I use time compression and sometimes I start with engines running. Why? I have a family and have a job to do. A job that some might "play" with a 911 sim at at home. And I play flightsim. FSX and XP. 

 

I have the impression you feel personally attacked by this recent post, but I don't quite understand why. I have not said that "playing flightsim" is a bad thing. I explictly said that my whole post was related to the reason why I use flight simulators.

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Yes,

 

the more I participate in the forums, the more I understand those I never understood before  - the football fans  and their endless discussions :-)

 

Contrarily to the usual guy, I don't like footbal, don't like cars, don't even like motorcycles... Just girls and aeroplanes :-) They make my World :-)

 

I looked at those footbal fans discussing the last game of their teams in the bar, in the bus stop, everywhere, and thought to myself, for years... What's the purpose???? What a waste of time????

 

Now I see their point... My team is... ( not telling... ) and I love discussing the most perfid aspects of simming and then... at night, when wife calls and asks - have you been "flying"? - I say... nope... posting :-/

 

I see Mario's point as well.... Yes, I'd rather be flying, but, honestly ... I'd rather be flying for real ... in my airclub gliders, now both broken after one "doing"  porpoising on landing ( by the way, something no sim I have used simulates correctly... )  and the other landing with the train retracted  :-/

 

A friend, the same who drove me into DCS World, and now is pushing me into IL2, ( probably his avenge for having called his attention to X-Plane's World, which he now rather prefers... ), usualy tells me - don't lose your time searching for the bugs... they're always be there - use the damn sim!!!!

 

Another friend who made his way up to getting the commercial pilot license, and even bought a warrior, once asked me to get him a tweaked warrior flight model for FSX. He had a nice visual model, including the instrument panel, but the flight dynamics were completely out of sync with reality... Is intention was to use the sim to practise emergencies, and gain proficiency training the right steps / checklists to perform under such circumstances. He also got some good scenery for a few areas here in our homeland, and used the sim primarily for that. That was the kind of training he couldn't get easily in RL, and he told me it was very useful!

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A friend, the same who drove me into DCS World, and now is pushing me into IL2, ( probably his avenge for having called his attention to X-Plane's World, which he now rather prefers... ), usualy tells me - don't lose your time searching for the bugs... they're always be there - use the damn sim!!!!

 

I think exactly this is what I wanted to say.

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I think exactly this is what I wanted to say.

Agreed, what we're all (presumably) looking for is 'flow', where we become immersed in the activity so much that we forget the passage of time in the real world. But different things have the possibility of breaking the flow for different people. For example some may notice a lack of fidelity in the physics model that I'm simply not aware of, that would ruin their experience. On the other hand I may notice a lack of structures at the airport that reminds me I'm playing a game rather than really flying a plane.

 

A sim that caters for as many as these personal whims as possible would get the biggest following, if that's indeed what LR are aiming for...

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So the conclusion is whatever fix, update, patch and improvements we will see in our sims in the future we'll still be here most of the time discussing how it could/should/will be even better. 

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From my 33 years of flight simming most developers do follow forums, do pick up ideas, and do listen and improve...most....

 

The 3d mesh system was adapted by MS after looking at the praise pro pilot picked up(though the sim was hugely maligned by the fs crowd at the time). Real weather downloads and their possibility were urged by many in the late 90's and the next version of fs had this feature. I know for a fact the ms people though at the time did not communicate thru the forums followed them avidly.

 

A responsive company listens to their customers and adapts. Forums are a wonderful vehicle for customers to share their experiences good or bad.

 

If I ran a company I'd have 1 employee reading all forums ( not just avsim) and reporting on a weekly basis, and listening and adapting where possible..period.

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I'll be honest and say for me a lot of Xplane10's wow factor has rapidly diminished. FSX has proven this year it's the little engine that won't quit. The amount of breakthru products this year has me starting up XPX less and less. From Weather, to Textures, to DX10, and A2A/PMDG/Dash etc..etc. FSX has sharpened it's fangs into XPX deeper. I know there are a few more products in the pipeline that are set to drive the fangs in even deeper. While I enjoy waiting on the next XPX release updates, there just hasn't been anything from launch that has a "Wow" factor.

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I'll be honest, to me XPX feels kind of stalled at the moment. The flood of 3rd party developers hasn't really come. even aerosoft seems to be assessing it commitment to XPX with just a handful of their sceneries released for XPX. Pmdg could take up to two years to fully get to grips with the sim and whist we do get a trickle of quality add ons (Goran's saab 340 for example.) there's still no glut of choice when it comes to scenery for example.

 

Even worse are the subtle signs that xp11 is under development, leaving XPX with perhaps another two years before it's replaced, hopefully more.

 

Then fsx like a Phoenix from the flames has had a slew of new products that are pushing the aging sim back to prominence. In fact the best thing that ever happened to fsx is no fs11 because we're now seeing add ons that work around and beyond its many bugs.

 

Meanwhile we're still waiting for atc to work, seasonal textures to be implemented and the release of regional autogen to de-Americanise the world. It's always coming, always.

 

Sorry to be downbeat, but that's how i see XPX at the moment. Stuck.

 

Best wishes,

Jess B

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If I ran a company I'd have 1 employee reading all forums ( not just avsim) and reporting on a weekly basis, and listening and adapting where possible..period.

 

Can I send you my details? :-)   I'll accept part of the payment in flying time, even on the right seat :-)


 

 


Sorry to be downbeat, but that's how i see XPX at the moment. Stuck.

 

I have to agree with you Jessica...

 

I think Austin knows it too... I just don't understand why they do not oppenly talk about what's going on... They risk loosing a big opportunity!

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Lol-jc. Unfortunately I don't own a company and I have for a variety of reasons been on a 1.5 year hiatus from rw flying...which is why I have increased urgency for a sim...any sim...to recreate the experience as well as possible.....

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Sorry to be downbeat, but that's how i see XPX at the moment. Stuck.

 

"Stuck" it is mainly if you want to see X-Plane as some kind of FSX successor, because the requirements to meet such an expectation are not yet fulfilled and probably will never really be fulfilled.

 

Within the borders of the X-Plane universe, however, everything is fine -- like it has been the many years before. If you're X-Plane user since, say, v7, v8 or even v9, v10 has features and addon availability & quality you only dreamt of some years before. For "old" X-Plane user, v10 is no reason to change to FSX/P3D.


 

I think Austin knows it too... I just don't understand why they do not oppenly talk about what's going on... They risk loosing a big opportunity!

 

Maybe Austin is simply content with what he's got and doing :) He, as individual. Not as a business man.

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which is why I have increased urgency for a sim...any sim...to recreate the experience as well as possible.....

 

I'm not using it anymore, but the only thing that comes to my mind is MS FLIGHT, albeit the limitations...

Then, if you don't mind flying a ww2 p51d, take DCS for a ride... But it lacks all of what we like - VOR's and NDBs, a good GPS, etc...  and of course, a Cessna, Piper or a Beech, or...

 

MS FLIGHT makes you feel like being there, but you'll be all by yourself :-(

The ATC is great in MS FLIGHT and the AI too!!! ( any proposition over a void set is true... )

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