I am as dissapointed and perplexed as all of you regarding the DOD decision on NavData. Having said that it is what it is and the question is simply...what are we going to do about it ?I would propose the following path forward:1) Organize. - As a community we need to pull together an organization to resolve this problem. - The organization should involve commercial software developers, internet sites, and us simmers. Most important would be to get Microsoft and XPlane support. I assume they will need this data for development of future versions of the software.2) Lobby - As an orgianization we need to lobby the DOD (well good luck) and more importantly your senator and congressman. 3) Negotiate to purchase the data. - This data is still going to be available, we may just have to pay for it. If we can negotiate as a group, I am sure companies like Jeppessen will be interested in additional increases to revenue. If 5000 simmers buy the data at $20 per year, that $100,000 in extra bottom line profit. While a very small amount, we all know every company is looking for more and more creative ways to increase their profits.Well thats my 2 cents, I am sure with additional input and effort we can come up with a strategy that will ultimately get us what we are after....access to NavData for the FS community.Mark.

>If 5000 simmers buy the data>at $20 per year, that $100,000 in extra bottom line profit. >While a very small amount, we all know every company is>looking for more and more creative ways to increase their>profits.I doubt Jeppesen would even perk up for anything less than $20 per cycle.But stranger things have happened I guess.Regards.Ernie.

I'd support efforts to insure the DAFIF data remains free and freely available, but I think our biggest concern should be Microsoft right now...Most of us enthusiasts know that the MSFS navaid and airway library is a little weak and difficult to tap into. Add-on developers have had to rely on their own methods of including navaids in their products. We know that MS doesn't tailor the program to us, but rather the "armchair pilot" who may not ever need or want to use an airway - but if we lose DAFIF, we essentially lose all the enhanced coverage and information it provides. We're back to being limited by MSFS's coverage. What we REALLY need is for Microsoft to step up to the plate in the next flightsim version and insure that the navaid/airway database is VERY complete and accessable. One unified, in-sim database of the information would be exceptionally useful. On a side note - if one company becomes the clearinghouse for such information, like Jeppesen, what happens to X-Plane when Microsoft signs an exclusive data distribution deal with them? I don't like the smell of this. -Greg

Good points, however, I am sure there can be a compromize. The data is essentially useless once the new cycle is released. Perhpas Jeppesen would give away (or charge a nominal fee) for old data. I think all of us in the FS world would be happy with data that is 2 or 3 cycles old.Mark.

>What we REALLY need is for Microsoft to step up to the plate in the next flightsim version and insure that the navaid/airway database is VERY complete and accessable. >One unified, in-sim database of the information would be exceptionally useful.This will not happen. Unfortunately Jeppesen was the part that forced Microsoft to make the navigation data in MSFS 2004 NOT upgradable. It is IMHO very unlikely that this position will change in future.Yours,Martin Georg/EDDFVACC-SAG PR & Events Coordinator *** mailto:[email protected]http://vatsim.pilotmedia.fi/statusindicato...r=SAG01&a=a.jpg

The best solution I can see right now barring any other free database becoming availiable is for Richard to make navdata a payware product and use our yearly fee for it to purchase the actual Jep database used in the real FMCs. To me that'd be worth the cost as well because we'd be getting a totally complete database for our addons without any missing approaches etc the way DAFIF was.

You all are very confused, there is NOTHING on the NGA site that has anything to do with civilian sids and stars or whatever the navdata consists of that you are talking about, all of the stuff on that site is military. All of the civilian airport TERPS, SIDS AND STARS WILL NOT BE TAKEN OFF THE NET, read the announcment. http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/ge...46&position=allHere is the site they are closinghttp://164.214.2.62/products/digitalaero/index.htmlhas nothing to to with civilian nav data.DOD means military.

Tabs,The problem is that Richard could not resell the data. It is not like you can pay $500 per month for Jepp data and then extract it and resell it to simmers.Remember, there are many other sources relying on the DAFIF data also... web sites, etc... So this will likely heat up over the coming months.It is possible that with an excellent community effort, a database could be maintained. With admins to validate submissions, etc... Maybe an extention on what Richard does now.Flight Simulator, X-Plane, other sims, other aviation sites, etc, could all participate. There would be a submission form for:New EntriesUpdated EntriesEntries to RemoveErrorsEtc...With this there is no advantage, no commercial interests from any one entity, etc.We will see what lies ahead...

737 Pilot,You do realize that the navdata we use in sims like the PMDG 737, F1 ATR, 767PIC etc are made with that DoD database (the DAFIF) right? Without that, we have no source data for people like Richard Stefan to work off of to give us current sim navdata...

I haven't had the luxury of flying a plane with a FMC, I do fly older jets every day and get by with civilian enroute charts and TERPS, SIDS and STARS that are free online and these are not done by the DoD or DAFIF, they will stay free online at http://naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/online/d_tpp this site has nothing to do with the DoD.If I can fly with these charts than you should be able to program a FMC with them also.DAFIF Flight Data (DAFIF

>737 Pilot,>>You do realize that the navdata we use in sims like the PMDG>737, F1 ATR, 767PIC etc are made with that DoD database (the>DAFIF) right? Without that, we have no source data for people>like Richard Stefan to work off of to give us current sim>navdata...Of course if you actually visit the Navdata.at forum, it's pretty clear that Richard Stefan and Terry Yingling already have other options in case the DAFIF database really does become unavailable.The collective moaning and whimpering of a henhouse full of Chicken Littles is not reflected in the "no problem, can-do, we'll deal with it" attitude prevalent there.Perhaps a few people could/should stop, smell the coffee, and learn a thing or two from these gentlemen.RegardsBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Washington, DC

Let me know if we can help. Web space, server space, whatever. Take up a public collection as mentioned in my previous post.

"The collective moaning and whimpering of a henhouse full of Chicken Littles is not reflected in the "no problem, can-do, we'll deal with it" attitude prevalent there."as usual. The conspiracy theorists and alarmists are shouting without any knowledge or sense of perspective.At worst the navdata will once again be static, just as it was up until a very few years ago.At that time noone complained. As it is the vast majority of users still never update their navdata, even many hardcore simmers.Heck, I'd venture that 90% of the users of products where the navdata CAN be updated (and that's maybe 2% of the users of MSFS) don't even know they can do so and of those that do know the majority don't go to the trouble.So there's at most a few thousand people worldwide in the FS community affected by this, in the US (the only people some congressman might listen to) maybe a few hundred and most of them minors whose preferences won't affect the outcome of the next elections.Go ahead, launch your online petitions and make a congressman's PR secretary work up a good laugh with your impudence to think your opinion is that worldshattering that his principle should make a fool of himself by presenting a bill to congress that makes sure the DAFIF database remains available to you!