Asiana 777 San Francisco crash NTSB hearing

[z06z33 763]

He's retired now but flew for United and the story about the F/O's not knowing where they were is true.

[voske 36]

 

 

can you post a link to the info that says they had 3000 set in the MCP? It was my understanding they had 0 dialled into the MCP whilst in FLCH hence why thrust went to HOLD.

 

One of the captains said (according to the interview summaries available at ntsb.gov) that around 1,900 feet the PF set the missed approach altitude to 3,000 in the MCP. The other captain said that when they were approaching 2,000 feet he set 3,000 in the MCP altitude.

[jaydor 233]

I have read enough information from top US instructors who have trained Korean pilots.  To stay well clear of any Korean airlines..

[dmncnpilot 39]

So true my dad told me stories of copilots getting there iPods out and reading a news paper as they flew the over pole portion(The captain and co-pilot went to the bunks at this point for rest) of the US to Asia flights. When he'd wake up and go back to the cockpit he'd usually get mad and them and ask where the plane was at, and most of the time they didn't know so he'd make them get a map out and figure it out instead of just looking at the screen. Automation of the cockpit is a bad thing! It promotes complacency which is not something any pilot should have whether flying a c152 or a A380.

I believe you. I have never been in a situation like that but a lot can be avoided by a good preflight brief. Good CRM and the correct use of automation is a very good thing, however if automation is used as a crutch it can be very dangerous. We carry charts for a reason so not knowing where the airplane is or following the flight progress on a chart is just plain lazy and poor airmanship. It all goes back to the basics. As private pilots we always knew where we were because we had no choice, we did our pilotage and dead reckoning, so why not continue with the basics. People make this job harder than what it is.

 

The real problem is inexperienced crew. I don't care if a pilot has 10k hours in a A330/B777if he/she is second guessing himself and is afraid to turn off the AP and just stick to the basics I consider that inexperienced and it's a huge problem an needs to be corrected.

[n4gix 4,947]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but isn't the very reason the GA button is on the power lever knob(s) because the pilot flying is expected to have his hand on those levers while landing manually?

[FLEX1978 373]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but isn't the very reason the GA button is on the power lever knob(s) because the pilot flying is expected to have his hand on those levers while landing manually?

Well it is in that location for a number of reasons, but yes the pilot flying should have his hand on the levers, doesn't matter if the landing is manual of automated.

 

Regards

[n4gix 4,947]

Well it is in that location for a number of reasons, but yes the pilot flying should have his hand on the levers, doesn't matter if the landing is manual of automated.

Thanks for confirming that I'm not totally out in left field, Rob. I've read nothing anywhere about the PF's hand positions, but it appears that he didn't have his hand on the levers, else he'd surely have noticed the 'auto-throttle' wasn't doing anything... :unsure:

[FLEX1978 373]

Thanks for confirming that I'm not totally out in left field, Rob. I've read nothing anywhere about the PF's hand positions, but it appears that he didn't have his hand on the levers, else he'd surely have noticed the 'auto-throttle' wasn't doing anything... :unsure:

I would be surprised if he didn't have his hands on the throttle, no reason for him not to.

 

At the end of the day you have to ask yourself why the check captain & pilot flying busted stable approach criteria? Putting aside the claimed automation mode confusion, having to do a visual dive and drive into SFO (I personally know flight crew that have complained about it for years)

 

Asiana, like every other airline has stable approach criteria that is set in stone. In the case of this incident they should have been on path/engines spooled and within five knots of Vref by 500ft If not hit TOGA!

 

Nothing can excuse the fact that they busted that final safety net.

[voske 36]

According to the PM the PF had his hand on the throttle after he disconnected the autopilot. The PF said (I understand in general) that he had his hand on the throttle sometimes and sometimes needed both hands on the yoke to fly the plane. He couldn't remember when his hand was on the throttle during this approach.

[Johan_Dees 84]

CRM skills in Asia... we have been there before.

Seniority dictates, wrong or not. There culture has a basic flaw for CRM.

It will happen soon again.

http://www.flight.org/blog/download/airline-safety/korean_airlines_safety_audit_report.pdf

 

"Captain hit FO with the back of his hand for making the error"

 

 

its old, but illustrates it well

[scott967 62]

According to the PM the PF had his hand on the throttle after he disconnected the autopilot. The PF said (I understand in general) that he had his hand on the throttle sometimes and sometimes needed both hands on the yoke to fly the plane. He couldn't remember when his hand was on the throttle during this approach.

 

Saw somewhere that the PF had experience in A320 variants, so even with hand on throttle his expectation was that throttle would remain stationary per AB design.

 

scott s.

.

[FLEX1978 373]

Saw somewhere that the PF had experience in A320 variants, so even with hand on throttle his expectation was that throttle would remain stationary per AB design.

 

scott s.

.

Sorry but that is BS, he was an A320 Captain being trained as a direct entry captain on the 777.. So much rubbish in the media, you don't go from your last line flight on the bus straight into a LHS check ride on the 777.. His hours we're low on the 777 but he would have undergone an intense course handling the machine in a huge range of scenarios.

 

Guys, I'm sure I will get negative votes here but seriously??? A fedex crew plough a perfectly functioning A310 into the ground and no lengthy posts on aviation forums, an Atlas/Boeing crew land at the wrong airport.... I could go on, Asiana wide body's have been landing at SFO safely and will continue to do so, this seems like an isolated incident.

[Avantime 81]

Sorry but that is BS, he was an A320 Captain being trained as a direct entry captain on the 777.. So much rubbish in the media, you don't go from your last line flight on the bus straight into a LHS check ride on the 777.. His hours we're low on the 777 but he would have undergone an intense course handling the machine in a huge range of scenarios.

 

IMO the problem is that is during stressful situations, the first thing pilots often forget is the stuff they learned in flight school. Remember AF447 where the pilots kept pitching the nose up when they're in a nose-high freefall? I wouldn't be surprised that the captain reverted to his prior instinct (which he learned through experience on the Airbus) where the throttles usually remain in the CLB detent until touchdown. 

 

I think the PNF instructor may also have dropped the ball in terms of his responsibilities as well - of monitoring the aircraft. IMO they should have fully configured a bit earlier even with the ATC speed restrictions, and IIRC they only started the landing checklist after the 500 RA call, when they should have completed that earlier based on the 500ft visual approach stabilization criteria. I think the PNF instructor was distracted during short final when he really ought to monitor the raw data, such as the airspeed and the RoD. Airspeed falling continuously below VREF should always trigger a go-around call because the pilots know they'll get busted via FOQA readouts if they don't and as the supervising instructor and PNF, his job was on the line as well.

 

FYI I haven't read all of the reports, so this is just my own speculation on the events. Stuff like this do happen, only 2 months ago a Turkish Onur Air Airbus got ridiculously low during a visual approach somewhere in France because they got fooled by the rising terrain to the runway.

[dmncnpilot 39]

Why don't we all just wait until the NTSB does their final report and state their findings? Way to much speculation going on.

[Don t moderate me this way 882]

Why don't we all just wait until the NTSB does their final report and state their findings? Way to much speculation going on.

 

 

Having followed the Irish IAA dealing with Ryanair incidents, and the German BFU dealing with a Germanwings near-catastrophe flight approaching EDDK in Dec. 2010, that's no valid option for us!   :rolleyes:    :ph34r: