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CrewF16

RW Hands on Flying, Scary.

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Some of you may have seen my other post in the PMDG General Forum "Lets hear it from those hands on Pilots" well it came to this.

 

"I started this topic really wondering about flying in the sim. It may have got off topic because I do have a passion for what is going on in the RW with all of the Automation and not enough of the seat of the pants flying. When I got my PPL they switched instructors about half way through. My second instructor was a retired C-141 Captain and man could I tell the difference. He could flip that Tomahawk around on his thumb. Spin training with him was a whole new experience. I just think there should be something in the regs (weather permitting) saying that there should be a certain amount of hands on per month."

 

So I timed a bunch of videos to see exactly how much time a AP spends behind the stick. All TO times were started at TO power set and ended at AP engage. Landing times were started at AP disengage and 80 knots (or best guess if not called) on the runway. I think that you will see an average time on the stick for an entire flight is a gracious five minutes. Not much experience daily to save your Butt.

 

TO times first and I will list conditions.

 

1. 737-800--1:10--Night

2. 747-400--2:26--Night

3. MD-80--2:53--VFR

4. DC-10--1:16--VFR

5. 767-300--1:04--VFR

 

Landing Times

 

1. 777-200--3:50--VFR

2. A-380--3:22--VFR

3. A-330--2:55--VFR

4. 737-800--3:40--VFR

5. 737-600--1:03--IFR

6. 787--1:49--VFR

7. MD-80--1:04--VFR

For Fun

8. PMDG 737-800--1:03--VFR

 

This does not take into account fatigue. Go check some Vids.

Thanks,

Ron

 

 

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Some of the airbus numbers are quite high for what I would have guessed. From what I had read, you just push buttons and the plane does all of the flying, guess I need to spend some more time in the Airbus X Extended.

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I have no problem with automation. In the long run, there will be far less accidents than in the past. In the meantime, if you want hands on flight, then do what numerous commercial pilots that I know do. Own and fly a Pitt's as an example. Or build one of many experimentals, and fly to your hearts content.

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quote name="LAdamson" post="2883156" timestamp="1387257711"]

 

I have no problem with automation. In the long run, there will be far less accidents than in the past. In the meantime, if you want hands on flight, then do what numerous commercial pilots that I know do. Own and fly a Pitt's as an example. Or build one of many experimentals, and fly to your hearts content.

 

But what happens when your automation goes bad at 40,000' in an emergency situation. Having a Pitts will help in skills but does nothing in knowing the plane you are in.

 

Thanks,

Ron

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But what happens when your automation goes bad at 40,000' in an emergency situation. Having a Pitts will help in skills but does nothing in knowing the plane you are in.

 

I agree with this whole heartly.

 

Just read the transcript from Air France 447 -  http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/aviation/crashes/what-really-happened-aboard-air-france-447-6611877

 

Just out of personal enjoyment. I like to fully plan the flight and use old school navigation techniqes in addition to AP. Like using a timer and headings. I am GA.

 

Watching the final episode of Flying Wild Alaska all avionics in the Beechcraft 1900 went out and he was above the clouds. One needs a bit of knowledge/training on their position to get out of that.

 

Side note - I get to fly an A320 real world sim next month as one of my friends is an instructor. I have also been lucky enough to fly other real world sims such as the F-18 at NAS Lemoore (hit the third wire first try) and F5 at NAS Keys West.

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Most guys I know (work load permitting) disconnect the automatics as much as possible. Speak to any line pilot and they will tell you a busy terminal area is no place to show of your hand flying skills whilst over loading the PM.

 

Personally I don't think this whole hand flying issue is as much of a problem as some people like to make out (at least in the airlines I know) every 6 months you are required to fly raw data single engine approaches (No FD) if you screw up you are back for another session and/or get shown the door.

 

The biggest problem I see is crew being afraid to disconect the automatics due to busting company criteria and being reported by the aircrafts QAR, not because the airline itself discourages hand flying.

 

Had a nice chat with a A330 right seater a few months back at a BBQ, he said as long as the captain is happy he will disconnect the AP, Autothrust and flight directors at Top of descent & hand fly the machine.

 

Nothing stopping other flight crew doing the same.

 

Regards

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My second sight abilities tell me this is gonna turn for the umpteenth time into the old, usual, "GPS vs non-GPS" debate... :smile:

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CrewF16, on 16 Dec 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

Some of you may have seen my other post in the PMDG General Forum "Lets hear it from those hands on Pilots" well it came to this. "I started this topic really wondering about flying in the sim. It may have got off topic because I do have a passion for what is going on in the RW with all of the Automation and not enough of the seat of the pants flying. When I got my PPL they switched instructors about half way through. My second instructor was a retired C-141 Captain and man could I tell the difference. He could flip that Tomahawk around on his thumb. Spin training with him was a whole new experience. I just think there should be something in the regs (weather permitting) saying that there should be a certain amount of hands on per month." So I timed a bunch of videos to see exactly how much time a AP spends behind the stick. All TO times were started at TO power set and ended at AP engage. Landing times were started at AP disengage and 80 knots (or best guess if not called) on the runway. I think that you will see an average time on the stick for an entire flight is a gracious five minutes. Not much experience daily to save your Butt. TO times first and I will list conditions. 1. 737-800--1:10--Night 2. 747-400--2:26--Night 3. MD-80--2:53--VFR 4. DC-10--1:16--VFR 5. 767-300--1:04--VFR Landing Times 1. 777-200--3:50--VFR 2. A-380--3:22--VFR 3. A-330--2:55--VFR 4. 737-800--3:40--VFR 5. 737-600--1:03--IFR 6. 787--1:49--VFR 7. MD-80--1:04--VFR For Fun 8. PMDG 737-800--1:03--VFR This does not take into account fatigue. Go check some Vids. Thanks, Ron

 

Sound like these guys need to play Flight Simulator a little more often.

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Need-To-Know, on 17 Dec 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

I get to fly an A320 real world sim next month as one of my friends is an instructor. I have also been lucky enough to fly other real world sims such as the F-18 at NAS Lemoore (hit the third wire first try) and F5 at NAS Keys West.

Hey I was stationed at NAS Lemoore and flew the same F/A-18 simulators. Are the sims in the same building right across from AIMD?

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Hey I was stationed at NAS Lemoore and flew the same F/A-18 simulators. Are the sims in the same building right across from AIMD?

 

I really could not give you a specific location on the base that I got to fly it. I was not stationed there but only there for 2 weeks working with VMFAT 101 and one day an instructor asked if I wanted to go over and try it out. It was the one in the cylindrical room with the full cockpit. The graphics were pretty lame (I heard they have upgraded them now). But I flew up the San Diego coast then did a few dives on the stadium (the only real discernible landmark to me in that sim).

 

One funny thing that happened was when I asked about something on the radar screen that I had not seen before. The instructor did quick cough and that part of the screen disappeared - it was beyond my clearance level.

 

Wish they would have taken me up in a T34, but that never happened.

 

EDIT: It was actually on Miramar.  - God I am getting old. :)

That got me thinking - I wonder when it was i was there - I found an old picture and I was there in November 2007:

56707247E.jpeg

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I really could not give you a specific location on the base that I got to fly it. I was not stationed there but only there for 2 weeks working with VMFAT 101 and one day an instructor asked if I wanted to go over and try it out. It was the one in the cylindrical room with the full cockpit. The graphics were pretty lame (I heard they have upgraded them now). But I flew up the San Diego coast then did a few dives on the stadium (the only real discernible landmark to me in that sim).

 

One funny thing that happened was when I asked about something on the radar screen that I had not seen before. The instructor did quick cough and that part of the screen disappeared - it was beyond my clearance level.

 

Wish they would have taken me up in a T34, but that never happened.

 

EDIT: It was actually on Miramar.  - God I am getting old. :)

That got me thinking - I wonder when it was i was there - I found an old picture and I was there in November 2007:

 

Miramar and NAS Lemoore is about as far apart as heaven and hell... Anyway the simulators at NAS Lemoore have movable and none movable trainers. I found most Level-D type trainers with graphics lacking. NAS Lemoore's trainers weren't that bad depending on which one you got into. What shocked me was how lacking the NWA 744 Level-D simulators were in the graphics department. That's why I know LM is going to make a killing with P3D once they get it where they want it. Concerning the radar signature that you saw, there's a few things in the cockpit that are secrete clearance only.

 

Miramar would have been my dream duty station. When it had the F14's stationed there with the Top Gun school on base it truly was something out of Top Gun the movie. Everything from the evening takeoffs of the F14's to the restaurant on the flight line was amazing. It hurt when he Navy gave the base over to the Marines. It was worse when the Naval Training Center by the airport got closed down. Part of San Diego was gutted when Bill Clinton shut down so much in San Diego. The same thing with Denver. When the bases closed the place has never been the same. Anyway my squadrons were VAQ-34 and VFA-94. What was yours?

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I have a couple friends flying on the line. My F/O friend on the A319/20/21 told me that SOP at ACA is to have the A/T on at all times during the flight (you never shut it off, even when landing). Another friend at WJA said they have to keep it on until the 100ft call out.....

 

So there you go...

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I have a couple friends flying on the line. My F/O friend on the A319/20/21 told me that SOP at ACA is to have the A/T on at all times during the flight (you never shut it off, even when landing). Another friend at WJA said they have to keep it on until the 100ft call out.....

 

So there you go...

Yep, it's a bit strange in the bus when it comes to company policy regarding Autothrust. Boeing made it clear on the 777 that the A/T should be kept in, every company I know of forbids disengaging it.

 

On Airbus they advise A/THR should be used, some company's say only disengage during gusty approaches, others leave it down to the Captain.

 

Most people I speak to say its a joy to fly with the AP & A/THR off, and G/S mini with A/THR on can be a little unpredictable at times.

 

Regards

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That's great buddy. Let's take anymore career (if we do) talk on PMs.

 

Not quite getting what your saying here but it sounds like for anymore career talk let's PM each other.

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AT would not be a problem. I think we still need the whole ball of wax but you still need to keep hands on those levers in case of failures or confusion. (Asiana) I am sure it is possible that certain carriers have rules about AP disengagement. Not one video did I see the AP still on at 100'. Regs say above 18,000.

 

Thanks,

Ron

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AT would not be a problem. I think we still need the whole ball of wax but you still need to keep hands on those levers in case of failures or confusion. (Asiana) I am sure it is possible that certain carriers have rules about AP disengagement. Not one video did I see the AP still on at 100'. Regs say above 18,000.

 

Thanks,

Ron

Can you elaborate on the last part of that post, I don't get it?

 

Cheers

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Huh, seriously? I have never heard of that.. I think you are getting confused with RVSM, above FL290 autopilot must be 'available' you can still hand fly to and from cruise, level flight the autopilot should be engaged.

 

Regards

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Had a nice chat with a A330 right seater a few months back at a BBQ, he said as long as the captain is happy he will disconnect the AP, Autothrust and flight directors at Top of descent & hand fly the machine.

 

Nothing stopping other flight crew doing the same.

 

 

So how would he hand fly an IFR plan with not even a FD guidance?

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So how would he hand fly an IFR plan with not even a FD guidance?

Hey Mike,

 

FD is an aid to the Job, nothing more. would be pretty scary if it was a mandatory tool to safely operate an airliner.

 

Just a side note - On Airbus if you are hand flying with Autothrust on, it is strongly advised to have the flight directors off to force the system into SPEED.

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So how would he hand fly an IFR plan with not even a FD guidance?

 

The vertical bar of the FD just tells you whether your should turn left or right to end up / stay on the magenta line on your ND, the horizontal bar just tells you where to pitch to maintain airspeed or altitude. It's not anything you can't work out for yourself if you're a competent pilot. I'm pretty sure masses of (pre-G1000) C172 pilots manage to hand-fly IFR plans every day without FD or even ND guidance.

 

Hey Mike,

 

FD is an aid to the Job, nothing more. would be pretty scary if it was a mandatory tool to safely operate an airliner.

 

Just a side note - On Airbus if you are hand flying with Autothrust on, it is strongly advised to have the flight directors off to force the system into SPEED.

 

Odd; on climb-out for example wouldn't you want to keep the thrust set to climb thrust and then pitch for speed? Not calling your knowledge into question, just trying to understand the logic.

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