Roger that, I'll probably post a screenshot-report of this flight. I'll use real weather for this exact morning I guess. 

 

Any luck?

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing, Kyle!

 

Welcome!  Let us know how it goes!

Thanks Mark!

Mark!  Awesome!  Really enjoyed watching that!  I have to say, I'm pretty impressed at how you were able to pick out the roads without ever having been here.  Google maps is a great tool, but even my friends who live here can have trouble figuring everything out in the air, so great job there! 

I've been able to pick out my house from the air, and people always wondered how I managed that. I also managed to pick out the schools I went to along with one of the malls I've gone to.

I had a relatively similar experience on a flight to KFLL. The pilot turned at around a 6.5 mile downwind from rwy 10L and, according to the flightradar24 playback, we were at 6000 feet when he began the turn to base and final. Because of this height, the pilot lowered the gear when he began his visual turn to base and we rode the spoilers in until  what was around a 2 mile final and definitely less than 1000 feet (these are rough calculations, but I know my way around the area enough to assert them with confidence). The plane felt like it in was a dive at first, and it was definitely a fun approach (accompanied by the frantic screams of some people). When I listened on liveatc, it turns out the pilot asked for a short visual when the downwind was about to begin, and I guess traffic was light enough that atc granted his request.This is a challenge in and of itself in FSX, especially with a slippery plane like the 800 NG (with the 700, it is much easier), but I am proud to say I've pulled it off with the 800. For comparison's sake, the real plane was an a319. I definitely have to try out Kyle's challenge also; a large plane like the t7 will make that 1.2 mile turn to final really fun.

Welcome!  Let us know how it goes!

 

Here you go, guys. Sorry for the delay, but I finally got round to doing this. Before we start I'd like to apologise for any procedural errors that I have made, and for my use of default scenery.  However, if you do spot something, do let me know; I'm always willing to learn!

 

I used Active Sky Next historical weather set to the 4th of September at 1040-ish Zulu and I decided to do the flight in a -300ER.

 

So, without further ado, let's get to it!

 

 

I set myself up on the BARIN 1 arrival, now passing through 9400 feet. As you can see, it's a pretty blustery day here in Washington D.C. with plenty of in-cloud turbulence on the way down.

 

Approaching 5000 feet, I've broken through the cloud layer and start my preparations for landing by beginning to slow the aircraft down to 230 knots.

 

 

Coming up on STAYO, I descend to 4000 feet and start looking for the airfield off to the left.

 

 

 

..and there it is! Airfield in sight, 11 o' clock.

 

I'm now cleared for the visual down to Runway 19L. Perfect! This will save me a whole bunch of time and keep the passengers happy.

 

I start slowing to 185 knots and begin a descent to 2000 feet in preparation for the turn to base.

 

 

Passing through 220 knots, set flaps 1.

 

 

Now abeam the airfield.

 

 

Set speed to 170, altitude to 1500, and flaps to 15.

 

Autopilot off, I'll now initiate the turn to base. Gear down, flaps 20.

 

 

Slowing to 148 knots for landing, flaps 30.

 

 

And I have a visual on 19L.

 

 

Since the 777 is such a heavy plane with a lot of inertia, I'm going to have to initiate the turn to final pretty early. So it's at this point I decide to start the turn.

 

 

 

 

There's a little bit of overshoot, but that's going to be easy enough to iron out.

 

 

Established on final, speedbrakes armed. Continue approach.

 

 

And landing!

 

This was definitely one of the most enjoyable approaches I've done in FSX. I highly recommend you try it out!

 

Thanks for viewing!

 

 

 

TL; DR: I landed the plane in one piece.

Thanks for bringing this up Kyle, this is a proper way of flying a 777. I like doing visual approach in good weather especially going to ORD, or some places in Japan like RJBB/RJGG etc. Some less develop airports in the world like Bali (WABB) or Cebu (RPVM ) sometimes a visual approach is actually easier.

 

I just gave it a try, never been to KIAD before, and it's quite straight forward. The STAR basically position the airplane in a perfect position for a visual approach. For people who are not quite familiar with the area, or if the airport is located over water like RJBB without too many ground features, there is a way to get it done.

 

Let's use KIAD as an example, First of all a normal circuit size for the 777 is 2.0 - 2.5nm wide ( distance between downwind leg and the runway centerline ). So to identify the circuit area on the ND we can use the runway fix to draw a 3nm circle which the airplane should be flying slightly inside the circle on downwind. It can also serve as a profile check point on final where the airplane should cross the 3nm mark at 900AGL (1200ft AMSL in KIAD with ~300ft elev) .

 

So after STAYO, when cleared for visual approach, if we are unfamiliar with the area, that's ok, all we need is to maintain visual contact with the the runway. So what we can do after clear for the visual approach is to put the RW19L waypoint to the top of the LEGS page, select inbd course 192 and then execute. This will gives us a the cross-track distance from the runway centerline on ND and also makes the ND showing the track miles to touch down on the top right corner for descent profile check.

 

Now there are two options, either continue on track 010deg after STAYO which give you a 3.9nm wide base leg or we can do an oblique downwind to reach 2.5nm abeam the runway threshold, it's your choice. I prefer the 2nd one, because I can apply this method to most of the airport I go to.

 

When abeam the runway threshold ( either look outside or use the ND ) start the Chrono ( easier to use a phone or stop watch to do it), after that drop the gear and call flap 20, at 45-50 sec, disconnect the AP, Flight Director Off, and the begin the base turn. Then call flap 30, set miss approach altitude and complete the landing checklist while turning in base.

 

If you fly a 2.5nm circuit, set 20deg of bank initially then adjust using the "Postion trend vector" on the ND to anticipate the turn. If you fly and 3.9nm circuit, you can still set 20deg AOB but you will need to reduce the angle of bank at some point in the middle of the turn otherwise you won't make it onto the centerline.

 

If you setup the ILS appr in the FM, the ILS should be auto tune. Through 90deg of the turn begin gentle descend of 500fpm. Once the G/S is alive you can follow the G/S.

 

Once you can see the runway, begin gentle roll out, use the G/S for vertical path control. Then a normal landing.

 

Make use of the ILS signal when it is available, once becoming familiar visual aspect of the approach, then try a pure visual approach. Too bad we can't switch off the PAPI in flight sim, it would be fun if we can take away the PAPI.

 

Using the above method, a visual approach can be conducted even when the visibility is not very good, ie 8km vis. And it's perfect for flight sim because we normally don't have a peripheral vision in flight sim to help us to position the airplane in a visual circuit.

 

PS. The key for doing a perfect circuit is to use the position trend vector - nickname "noodle", on the ND for the base turn, set an AOB so that the noodle overlaps the runway centerline on the ND. I also suggest using 10nm range on the ND with Map CTR. That will give you the most accurate picture.

 

Enjoy the proper flying of this jet !! Cheers.

Helpfull info and tips above, but a Couple of things:

1) dont mix up a visual approach with a non precision circling approach!

A visual approach can be made to a 2-3-4-5-6nm,etc final.

Only A cicrcling approach has to be performed within a certain distance from the runway.

This distance depends on category airplane (B772 is cat C where I live) and regulations (Terps (USA) or JAR (Europe))

JAR=4.2nm circling area from threshold fr Cat C aircraft.

Terps=3.4nm circling area from threshold (Cat C) (but we Europeans are not allowed to use Terps criteria and minimums!)

 

2) selecing the landing runway threshold in the FMC for reference is possible but not smart for a non precision circle to land. Because in case you lose visual contact with the rwy you need to fly the original missed approach.....which will be deleted if you change rwy threshholds in the FMC!

 

3) missed approach can be set once at the MDA (circling approach). No need to wait for gear down or anything else.

 

4) timing is not required for a visual approach....it is done purely by look and feel. Ofcourse timing does help if you do a visual pattern as described in the maneuvers chapter of the QRH.

Timing is done mainly to assure you stay within the circling area of a non precision circle to land approach.

Helpfull info and tips above, but a Couple of things:

1) dont mix up a visual approach with a non precision circling approach!

A visual approach can be made to a 2-3-4-5-6nm,etc final.

Only A cicrcling approach has to be performed within a certain distance from the runway.

This distance depends on category airplane (B772 is cat C where I live) and regulations (Terps (USA) or JAR (Europe))

JAR=4.2nm circling area from threshold fr Cat C aircraft.

Terps=3.4nm circling area from threshold (Cat C) (but we Europeans are not allowed to use Terps criteria and minimums!)

 

2) selecing the landing runway threshold in the FMC for reference is possible but not smart for a non precision circle to land. Because in case you lose visual contact with the rwy you need to fly the original missed approach.....which will be deleted if you change rwy threshholds in the FMC!

 

3) missed approach can be set once at the MDA (circling approach). No need to wait for gear down or anything else.

 

4) timing is not required for a visual approach....it is done purely by look and feel. Ofcourse timing does help if you do a visual pattern as described in the maneuvers chapter of the QRH.

Timing is done mainly to assure you stay within the circling area of a non precision circle to land approach.

Thanks for the reply. I would like state clearly that my previous post was merely another suggestion or approach to conduct a visual approach. It is consistent with the fleet recommendation and a common practice in the airline which I fly the airplane for. I have to emphasize once again that there are numerous way to do a visual approach. What I tried to do was to establish a consistent method in accordance with the FCTM recommendation and airline practice in a way that the particular method can be universally apply in various airports I normally go to. And it is again my own practice, feel free to do anything you prefer to suit your own operation.

 

1) I know what a circling approach is. The method of conducting a circling CAN BE similar to a normal circuit type visual approach depends on what type of instrument approach we use to get break visual.

 

2) I wasn't trying to discuss how to do a circling approach. However most of the time ("not always" ) bringing the runway waypoint to the top will improves situational awareness and it's a common practice . First of all we get an accurate track mile to run and a correct VNAV scale to look at. 2nd of all in the KIAD case we have a ILS miss approach in the FM if we need to fly it at the end for some reason, LNAV would be available.

 

3) irrelevant to the discussion

 

4) Most of the unstable approach event results from conducting a visual approach, according to industrial wide safety report and QAR data. The fact is most modern airline pilots who flies the big jet seldom do visual approach, and there aren't too many places where we can regularly do it. And it is really hard to do it by look and feel if people only get to do it every once a year in the simulator. In a modern jet like the 777 with GPS position and accurate ND presentation, we can do it by the number with the outside picture, the resulting maneuver would be very accurate.

 

There are no concrete set of rules to flying, everyone has a different set of opinion in their own operation. Whatever suits you the best is the best practice.

 

best regards.

Please take the info below as info mainly for others.

I know I dont need to tell you how to do things.

 

Thanks for the reply. I would like state clearly that my previous post was merely another suggestion or approach to conduct a visual approach.

Ok, because the main reason I replied is because, although your post can be helpfull to many, I felt it could confuse others by giving them the impression.....this is how you do a visual. Even more so because when things like....how to do a visual..... come from a real world pilot, everything you say can be taken as fact instead of opinion or preference.

 

What I tried to do was to establish a consistent method in accordance with the FCTM recommendation and airline practice in a way that the particular method can be universally apply in various airports I normally go to. And it is again my own practice, feel free to do anything you prefer to suit your own operation.

 

The fact is most modern airline pilots who flies the big jet seldom do visual approach, and there aren't too many places where we can regularly do it

 

Yep, same here.

At our airline and the type of destinations we fly to you only get a handfull (or less) visuals per year.

But the thing is, of ALL visuals I have done in my life.....not a single one included timing or that textbook QRH 2nm-2.5nm downwind you were talking about.

They were all visuals from like 4000-10.000ft where the controller asked "rwy in sight?" or "do you want a visual?". Not one arrival or radar vector was of the textbook type that ended at 1500ft AGL on a 2.5nm downwind.

Sometimes my visuals would be given from a 5nm wide downwind leg abeam the threshold in 4000ft......."ready for a visual"....."sure"......."cleared visual"......forget timing!

Sometimes they were from the wrong direction, before even being overhead the airport, "airport in sight?"......."affirm"........"cleared visual"..........requiring to first fly to the aiport, then pass overhead to then fly a downwind leg long enough to reduce altitude (all done by the "this should do kinda feeling") before turning base and final.

 

For Kyles example your textbook visual works....timing included (although I do not think that Kyles real world example timed anything at all).

And as said, good tips/tricks....but I just wanted to make sure that our fellow simmers dont think they HAVE to do a visual like that.

A circling IS done like that......a visual allmost never in my experience.

 

2) I wasn't trying to discuss how to do a circling approach

I know.......but since your/the textbook visual and the circling approach are so simular I wanted to make sure things are not confused (by others).

 

3) irrelevant to the discussion

Not in my discussion!

Since you decided to describe how to do a textbook visual.....the one that looks like a circling approach.....I decided to add circling info to show some of the differences. One of them is that during a non precision circling approach, the Missed approach altitude can be set once the MDA has been reached.

 

Same is valid for putting the runway threshold on top.

When you do a visual......you will know ahead of time (ATIS) which rwy is in use.

So you will have the ILS programmed in there already.

If then cleared for a visual instead of the ILS, then it makes perfect sence to put the threshold on top with the inbound course.

But for a circling not.......when you change runways in the FMC during the circling maneuver the whole original missed approach is lost! (again, just trying to show differences here because your visual example might be so confusingly close to a circling approach for others).

You can however select the circling rwy from the CDU and leave it at the end of the route. This way you end up with two runways displayed on the ND.

The approach rwy and the circle to land rwy, and thus you can use the "noodle" as well.

There are no concrete set of rules to flying, everyone has a different set of opinion in their own operation. Whatever suits you the best is the best practice.

Really? I understand that there are many instances where an airline pilot is expected to adhere to "concrete rules". "whatever suits you best" isn't always the best practice in my view.

Please don't take it to the extreme. There are set of procedures defined in the books pilots need to follow but at the same time, under the frame of FCOM3 and FCTM and company policy, there are rooms which we can move within. Which is why different people will have slightly different operating style. That was what I try to point out. I didn't mean that one can be reckless with the airplanes and ignore all the rules.

 

For example, this visual approach into KIAD, there are various ways to position the airplane.

Thanks for the reply 777simmer. I agree for circling approach, putting the runway waypoint to the top too early may cause trouble. But its a little bit complicated. I used to love doing circling in the sim, too bad there aren't too many of those in real life.

 

I would like to share some of my very limited experience.

 

I have done both standard circuit type visual and the type you mentioned as well, because I mostly fly in Asia. In the part of the world I fly usually the airports are relatively small and some of them only has one runway with limited traffic, for example in Osaka and Nagoya, once we are visual at 10,000ft we are usually cleared to track direct to the airfield for a visual approach if it's in early morning. So most of my colleagues including me will just do a circuit. In this type of a approach timing become a good to determine when to turn with the lack of ground feature over water. other time, we will get vectors for a 6nm final which is not different to an ILS approach.

 

The other example being Fukuoka RJFF using Rwy 34 approaching from the north west, where terrain is a concern, a circuit type of approach is pretty much the only way to get in otherwise we had to ILS, which is less prefer by ATC due to noise issue unless the weather is really bad.

 

The type of visual approach you mentioned in your post based on my past experience usually happen the US and sometimes Canada. Which give us quite some room to slow down and lose height, except occasionally for SFO/ORD/LAX where sometime ATC would cut you in quite tight and keep the speed high.

 

Apart from that, I haven't done any visual approach into Europe yet. Most of the time, when see the airport and clear for the ILS, i would do a raw data approach when the weather is good.

 

cheers

I presume you fly the A330 given you forum name?


P. S. PMDG may tell you off for not sighing your real name at the bottom of your posts. :smile:

I have done both standard circuit type visual and the type you mentioned as well, because I mostly fly in Asia. In the part of the world I fly usually the airports are relatively small and some of them only has one runway with limited traffic, for example in Osaka and Nagoya, once we are visual at 10,000ft we are usually cleared to track direct to the airfield for a visual approach if it's in early morning. So most of my colleagues including me will just do a circuit. In this type of a approach timing become a good to determine when to turn with the lack of ground feature

See....now that is the kind of flying that makes fun :-)

 

Just like some of the Greek islands.....lots of visuals like that :-)

 

When you say you will just do a circuit......you mean the textbook circuit, downwind at 1500ft? Or higher? (just asking out of interest here.....might do a few of the approaches you mentioned)

 

If you have more interesting stuff for Asia I guess this would be the perfect tread to post it in. (even if those places are not visited by 777s normally!)

The type of visual approach you mentioned in your post based on my past experience usually happen the US and sometimes Canada. Which give us quite some room to slow down and lose heigh.

Same thing for those Greek islands. Visuals from all kinds of altitudes and positions :-)

 

Also Egypt (Luxor/Hurghada) sometimes gives you visual from 10.000ft overhead the airport.

 

Also quite nice is the LOWS Salzburg ILS16 circle to land for rwy34. Due to terrain small turn radius required!

(not quite as challenging as LOWI Innsbruck but quite nice.

 

Visuals into big European cities are rare though.....not like USA at all.

Seems like in Europe more traffic means less visuals and in the USA it is the opposite?!

For Standard circuit we do it as per the QRH at 1500ft AGL. I have done 1000ft AGL circuits in the full flight sim and occasionally in FSX, but the circuit is a bit too tight for such a big jet in my opnion. Especially with the PMDG 777 which I found yaw damper is very slow to dampen out the side-slip when rolling out of the turn to final. It makes tracking onto final a bit harder. So a longer final of 1500AGL circuit gives me more room for correction.

 

Those Japanese airports I mentioned all have regular 777 traffics from ANA and JAL as well as Cathay pacific, Singapore airline, Korean air and china airline etc as there's a huge tourist demand in South Asia and china to visit various big cities in Japan. Although those airport are small in size comparing to Haneda and Narita in Tokyo, quite often you will be able spot some big jets there.

 

There are quite a few interesting youtube video filming from a ground of a ANA / JAL 777 doing visual circuits. This one is an example http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d1bnf5m7grk it's a ANA 772ER doing a circling approach.

 

You can see from the video above there's a mountain range at back which makes it hard to put an ILS approach over the hills unless with a very steep glide path and also cost of installing the ILS can be factor for such small airport. Therefore when come in to land from the sea, they would do the circuit to land, however I am not sure if they do 1000ft or 1500ft circuit normally, but if it's circle to land they are doing in the video, it's probably a1000ft AGL one.

 

I would love to visual approach into Europe. Or into those small Greek Islands you mentioned. It's definitely no hope going to London Heathrow or that will be my last flight flying an airplane.

 

You can probably try to request it in Milan MXP. I am not sure if they will grant it, if not just hand fly the arrival following radar vector then intercept the runway visually on the ATC assigned intercept heading, but last time I was there it was pretty quiet in the morning around 7am local time.

 

Yea I agree, it seems to me that in Europe or in Asia, ATC slow us down due traffic, whereas in the US is the other way around, they speed you up and give you visual approaches and try to get you on the ground ASAP. That's why for pilots who are used to the Asian or European ATC management culture, when they first fly to the US, they can potentially fall into a trap of being too high on profile and too fast, if they don't anticipate the shortcuts and get ready for it.