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Most Accurate General Aviation Aircraft in P3D V2.4?

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Accuracy in this case is not appearance but flight characteristics. In my case I use the Maule and Bonanza from Lockheed plus the C152 from Carenado and the Piper Cub from A2A. Each of these all react in flight a bit differently. Those differences are easily seen as the known differences in the aircraft. I also have the A2a C172. It reacts in a manner that is difficult to explain. The most obvious thing is that setting Trim at the usual labeled indicator results in a very exaggerated nose up takeoff. Even getting it under control requires you to immediately adjust the trim. However, taking off with the trim pointer set near the letter K appears, to me, to be a normal takeoff performance. 

 

Setting in a field at full throttle the aircraft does not move. RPM at a max of 2300. Shutting down and doing an overhaul does not help.

 

Setting brakes with CH pedals is tricky but i have them working on all the named aircraft except the A2a C172. The differential braking does not work at all. Other planes it works as expected.

 

Since I am not a pilot and have only briefly been in a GA aircraft I can only feel that something is quite different with my copy of the A2a C172. Or, there is a general significant difference in adjusting it and its operation.

 

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The Cherokee is great , but the Carenado PC12 flies right on as well

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I also have the A2a C172. It reacts in a manner that is difficult to explain. The most obvious thing is that setting Trim at the usual labeled indicator results in a very exaggerated nose up takeoff. Even getting it under control requires you to immediately adjust the trim. However, taking off with the trim pointer set near the letter K appears, to me, to be a normal takeoff performance.

 

I'd try replacing the FDE with the one from RealAir (free in the Avsim library).  I did that for other reasons (slow flight, stalls) and it's pretty amazing at that. 

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I'd try replacing the FDE with the one from RealAir (free in the Avsim library). I did that for other reasons (slow flight, stalls) and it's pretty amazing at that.

Gregg - how exactly do you do this?

 

Thanks in advance!

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The reason I question the popular acceptance of the A2a C172 as a "gold standard" is the quite odd settings on the trim function. Are there other settings or functions that are not the same as an actual C172? I understand that each plane is different depending how its trim functions are set, the condition of the engine, occupancy, etc. It is just that the very odd trim function is bothersome and leads me to question other elements.

 

If there is a better representation of a real C172 flight characteristics then I would use that, or its "air" file. Asking about this on the A2a forum only had responses from others with similar questions.

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I've migrated my RealAir SF260 and Lancair across to P3D.

 

Most accurate GA (ish) aircraft I've flown on a PC based simulator.

 

Haven't bothered reinstalling the A2A Cherokee. Disappointed by the handling characteristics.

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The reason I question the popular acceptance of the A2a C172 as a "gold standard" is the quite odd settings on the trim function. Are there other settings or functions that are not the same as an actual C172? I understand that each plane is different depending how its trim functions are set, the condition of the engine, occupancy, etc. It is just that the very odd trim function is bothersome and leads me to question other elements.

 

 

 

If there is a better representation of a real C172 flight characteristics then I would use that, or its "air" file. Asking about this on the A2a forum only had responses from others with similar questions.

 

 

I don't have much C172 time, RW, but I've got about 75 hours C152 and C182.  There are a lot of folks around here with more time than me.  When I got the A2A there were many things I liked about it but the way it flew seemed odd.  Particularly slow flight...very nose down.  The flaps will bring the nose down but as you approach stall speed it comes back up in a C152 and the view over the nose is not good.  A C172 has a bigger cowl so it should be worse.  With slowflight being that way, stalls were also going to be that way which was just not right in my book.  I traded out the .air file with the RealAir one and things substantially improved.  I'd also say, the more I've flown RealAir airplanes the more I appreciate how much work they've done that don't get noticed or barely get a nod.  For example, the way the throttle handles in the C172...it lags just like a real world airplane.  You lower it to 20, fly along for 30 seconds and look down and it's 19 or 18.  That's the way they are.  I remember because it used to annoy me in the real world.  Anyway, my 2 cents.

 

Try the RealAir file and tell us what you think.

 

Gregg

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Go here and download it...

 

http://www.realairsimulations.com/list_box.php?page=downloads

 

Then go to you A2A C172 directory and back up your air and cfg files.  I'm pretty sure I only copied the .air file from the download but I may have copied the .cfg file too.  Try the air file and see if it flies better. 

 

Going to that link I only found an Cessna 172 link for FS2004. Do you mean this and that it works as well in FSX and P3D ?

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Going to that link I only found an Cessna 172 link for FS2004. Do you mean this and that it works as well in FSX and P3D ?

 

It works fine in FSX.  I haven't tried a C172 much in P3D but I'm guessing it works the same.

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Guys,

 

Try doing these procedures and see how it goes. 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCYQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fflymiami.com%2Fdocuments%2Fmaneuvers%2Fc172.pdf&ei=PNJDVM-YGMSSgwSQ_IGQBg&usg=AFQjCNHGk_5ascIANDbY87p_R8bJ5bdZRQ&sig2=XMxmYmZX0HBGducpbvl1Jg&bvm=bv.77648437,d.eXY

 

You're probably not going to be able to do the turns around a point and things like that since you can't really watch a point and the dash very well like you can in a real plane.  I'd try slow flight, perhaps stalls.  Make sure you're up around 3000 AGL or so before you practice a stall.  It may try to spin on you in a stall.  If it does, don't panic...it recovers nicely.

 

Here's a YouTube video that shows it.  Thing is, compare what the airplane in the video does compared to the aircraft you're flying.  Try both FDEs and see which is closer.

 

 

EDIT:  In terms of spinning...some aircraft don't do it and some do.  You have to be ready for one that does and see that you can recover when it does.  (Note...If you try to level the airplane with ailerons before you recover from the stall you'll make it worse...use the rudder!!)

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I just thought I'd jump in to mention that the trim behavior in the A2A 172 is realistic when compared to a 172N that I fly. With the trim in the center of the window, the aircraft will rotate, continue to pitch up steeply and probably go into a stall if no action is taken to push forward on the yoke. I have never let it get that slow to find out, but it sure does feel like it will stall. You need to maintain positive control with the yoke and not let the trim fly the airplane.

 

Note that there is a patch you must apply to update the A2A 172 to the latest version and get all the fixes.

 

Aside from that I've compared several areas of behavior that did not "seem" right to me to a real aircraft and found that my memory was wrong, and the sim was right. This included climbing away at 800FPM with flaps fully deployed after a stall recovery, as well as gliding in at 45KIAS and descending at 400-500FPM with flaps fully deployed and throttle at idle.

 

I find it to be a very good representation of one of the RW airplanes I use.

 

I haven't used the Real Air file in a very long time, but I did find it to be a big improvement over the stock 172. I'm don't recall which 172 the Real Air file was meant to replicate, but I can say from experience that a 172N handles much differently than a 172S. The 172R in the A2A model appears to behave much closer to an N model.

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Hey Guys,

 

using different files will of course invalidate support for the Accu-sim C172 Trainer.

 

You will want to make sure you grab the latest Accu-sim update here for the latest files and free new features;

http://a2asimulations.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=41279

 

Once you are all updated will have a professional level simulator (Used in flight training) at home in FSX or P3D for $50 (depending upon your license).

 

Any issues, we welcome all feedback here on our community forums with flight simmers and 10,000+ hour pilots on hand to help;

http://a2asimulations.com/forum/index.php

 

cheers,

Lewis

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Again, I never piloted an airplane except for 15 minutes in the air with a C152 and taxiing which was easier than with P3D and my plastic pedals. However, I am surprised that a 172N does the same thing my A2A virtual aircraft does in relation to the trim setting. Why would Cessna do that? If you trained in an older Cessna and then tried to fly the N you could easily be killed with a neutral trim setting. 

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Use the aircraft in sim as you would in reality would be the first place to start, keep the pressure on the yoke and react as you would in reality to the aircrafts movement. One of the biggest issues is people flying sim aircraft different to how they fly in reality. This is often no fault of the sim pilot as often what you will see yourself do, on video for example, is stuff you would never do in sim because its just one of those subconscious things.

 

During development during the test flight phase with the C172 we found that memory of even 10mins after flight often did NOT match up to the video footage of actions and what the aircraft/gauges where doing at a given time. Once this happened more than twice we realized that we cannot trust ourselves exclusively and so used (And the emphasis changed to) the video footage from the test flight program we developed.

 

If you wish to discuss this further with real life high hour CFI's and more then please feel free to post questions on our A2A forums. We often get these kind of questions and the development team and community are happy to help explain how to get the best out of your sim time and how to use real world techniques correctly in the sim, not to mention why aircraft do this and that and some  with some basic and even advanced physics thrown in for good measure.

 

Heres a video that RL pilot, CFI etc and community member Great Ozzie made to help with a landing question on our forums;

 

thanks,

Lewis

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Again, I never piloted an airplane except for 15 minutes in the air with a C152 and taxiing which was easier than with P3D and my plastic pedals. However, I am surprised that a 172N does the same thing my A2A virtual aircraft does in relation to the trim setting. Why would Cessna do that? If you trained in an older Cessna and then tried to fly the N you could easily be killed with a neutral trim setting.

 

In one sense, you're right...an airplane, in general, is expected to be flyable.  Cessnas and, particularly, Pipers excel at that.  Still, however, every airplane is different.  (Like I mentioned, out of the 5 or so C152s we had at my school, one would nose over on a power on stall.  I really didn't like that plane!)  In any case, you have to fly the numbers, not the trim.  If you want to climb at Vy, at climb power set the nose at the right place on the horizon and/or AI with your hand on the yoke and hold it there.  If your speed is too low, lower the nose some more...too high, raise it.  After that, trim until you have to hold no pressure on the yoke.  Once you get the right speed, memorize where the nose is in relationship to the horizon (if VMC) or AI (if IMC) for future reference. 

 

When you want to level off, push the nose down until it's level (altitude is steady), let your speed build to close to cruise, then back off your power to cruise and, finally, trim.  Trim last.

 

I'll put the old air file on later this afternoon and see how it does.

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However, I am surprised that a 172N does the same thing my A2A virtual aircraft does in relation to the trim setting. Why would Cessna do that? If you trained in an older Cessna and then tried to fly the N you could easily be killed with a neutral trim setting.

That's a great question and one I can't answer for Cessna engineers. I've asked myself the same question. :)

 

What I can say is that no pilot would be overwhelmed by that because they are flying the airplane with the yoke and not the trim. The pilot is flying the airplane, not yet other way around.

 

The yoke is used to position the airplane in the desired attitude and the trim is moved as desired to relieve the workload.

 

Both are moved in coordination to keep the attitude fixed in place while the forces are trimmed out.

 

Gregg,

 

You should install the latest update, there have been a number of changes.

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Setting in a field at full throttle the aircraft does not move. RPM at a max of 2300. Shutting down and doing an overhaul does not help.

 

 

Hello Dick,

 

What do you mean with "does not move"?

Is it as if she was glued or does she moves but does not gain speed?

 

And maybe this is a stupid question from my side... but did you check if the "Tie Downs" have been removed? So in other words, did you follow the pre-start checklist?

 

All the best.

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You should install the latest update, there have been a number of changes.

 

Okay, I only have the A2A for FSX so I did install the latest update there and ran a test flight.  The slow flight was substantially better (though, at full flaps it was stalling below the green arc still well in the white arc but not a big deal).  The important thing was the nose-low behavior was pretty much gone.  Also, when I took off I left the evevator trim centered.  Takeoff was simple, requiring almost zero pullback on the yoke and it climbed nicely.  I did not have to trim down at all...I had to apply just a little back-pressure to keep Vy (finger pressure) but not very much.  It flies just as I would expect a RW Cessna to fly.  I'd think it would fly the same in P3D but, dunno...

 

The two issues I saw:

  • The annunciator test switch wouldn't move.  I had the click spot...it just wouldn't move.  I assigned it to a button and it worked.
  • This one's interesting and only a comparison to the RealAir .air file.  In a RW Cessna, the blasted RPM lags.  (I say blasted because it always annoyed me.)  If you pull back power to 2100 and look away 30 seconds or so it'll be down at 19.  The 'other' (RealAir) air file actually models that.  (Yes, it annoys me but I know the real one does it.)  The A2A one doesn't seem to...you set it at 21 and it stays there.  It'd be really nice (and annoying) if it lagged!

But the air file was just fine and certainly in the realm of what I'd deem realistic.

 

So, getting back on topic, if it were me, I'd do a reinstall to see if that fixes what's going on with the airplane.  It doesn't appear to be modelled to be nose up on takeoff.  Also, check your weight and balance.  Do you have passengers in the back?  Something's not the same.

 

Gregg

 

Edit:  I put passengers in the back and loaded it up near Max Gross Takeoff Weight and, still, it was fine...no nose up.  Also loaded the airport at a grass strip and it taxiied fine, differential braking worked well. 

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In a RW Cessna, the blasted RPM lags. (I say blasted because it always annoyed me.) If you pull back power to 2100 and look away 30 seconds or so it'll be down at 19. The 'other' (RealAir) air file actually models that. (Yes, it annoys me but I know the real one does it.) The A2A one doesn't seem to...you set it at 21 and it stays there. It'd be really nice (and annoying) if it lagged!

 

Gregg, I wouldn't extrapolate too much from the 152's and 182 you've flown as far as engine characteristics are concerned.  Keep in mind that this is modeled on a much newer plane which, in addition to other things, is fuel injected, not carburated as the 152/182 stuff you've flown would have been.

 

Scott

 

Edit:  I also meant to note that there will be substantial differences depending on prop pitch on the planes you've flown.  For example, amongst the 152 fleet I used when I did my primary training, we had a 152 Aerobat with a very steep pitched prop.  It was like flying a completely different plane as compared to all of the cruise props on the rest of the 152s.

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Gregg, I wouldn't extrapolate too much from the 152's and 182 you've flown as far as engine characteristics are concerned. Keep in mind that this is modeled on a much newer plane which, in addition to other things, is fuel injected, not carburated as the 152/182 stuff you've flown would have been.



Scott

 

LOL...let me get my cane.  Very true...nothing I flew, sadly, had fuel injection.

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I was up flying a 172S with an IO-360 this weekend and can definitely confirm that the throttle response is instantaneous, but the RPM does not remain at that RPM unless the airspeed has also stabilized. So to Gregg's point, the RPM will not remain steady if you make a throttle change until the airspeed has also stabilized. a 100-200 RPM deviation isn't out of the question if you throttle from cruise at 2400 RPM to 2100 RPM. After a few seconds, it isn't unsual to find the RPMs sitting at 1900 or 2000. I never paid attention to this on the N, so I'm not sure how that one behaves. The A2A is settling about 50-100 RPMs.

 

When you find that the aircraft stalls within the white arc in a landing configuration. Is it the stall warning going off or the nose dropping? If I wait for the nose drop it does happen around 2-3 knots above the end of the white arc.

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When you find that the aircraft stalls within the white arc in a landing configuration. Is it the stall warning going off or the nose dropping? If I wait for the nose drop it does happen around 2-3 knots above the end of the white arc.

 

That sounds about right.  Like I said, it's not bad.  Stalls are impacted by LOTS of things (load, turn, etc.). 

 

Gregg

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