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patrico

Old habits die hard

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while some may scoff at what I am about to say.................in a final act of sheer desperation and frustration I need to come clean. Even on autoland I still do not

 

know how to shoot an ILS approach correctly, the little knowledge I have gleaned comes mainly from Utube and from videos put up by kids (with wrong

 

information) taking  a break from playing PACMAN and the like, but you get my gist. I fly the PMDG 777 because of its high level of accurate automation (which I

 

need after my accident) to enjoy  this wonderful hobby/addiction. I learnt from watching these videos that 2500 was always what you should set your altitude at

 

prior to commencing an ILS approach.

 

Can someone on here  kindly give me the correct procedure

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Patrick,

 

Your inital altitude should be set by ATC or altitidue difined by the Approach Plate.  Once you capture the Glide Slope, you should reset your altidute to that specified by the missed approach procedures, which are also found on applicaple approach plates. 

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Patrick,

 

If you set your altitude target to 2500 you'd be in deep do-do at Denver International since the airport is at approx 5400. To fly an ILS or do any kind of approach you have to review the relevant chart(s). There's no way around this because, while there are general procedures for setting up for an ILS approach, the critical specifics of each individual approach can only be found in the charts. Flying without charts is flying blind.

 

Free charts for the US are available here. For European airports Eurocontrol has all the charts you need, and you can register here for access to all of them.

 

Have fun!

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Can someone on here kindly give me the correct procedure

Take a look at the videos mentioned in post #1 in this thread http://forum.avsim.net/topic/453634-mcp-training-videos-released/?hl=%2Bboot+%2Bcamp. There is lot of useful information in these videos. The link in post 1 will take you to YouTube where you will see all the videos he has released. It concerns not only the NGX but procedures in general which are applicable to the T7.

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the little knowledge I have gleaned comes mainly from Utube and from videos put up by kids (with wrong information) taking  a break from playing PACMAN and the like, but you get my gist.

 

This will come across as a little awkward, given the fact that I do have my own YouTube account, and its content is primarily Flight Sim stuff, but...

 

YouTube is one of the biggest pitfalls for this community. There are way too many kids out there who think that they know everything and will just put anything up there to get views. Never mind the fact that the information is terribly inaccurate and leads people astray, and can set people back immensely in their learning, and other people have to step in and train people out of that.

 

In any case. Good on you for turning to the forum for more information.

 

First:

You're flying into DEN. According to YouTube, your initial approach altitude should be 2500. You'd never reach 2500 (in fact, you'd reach about -6' AGL before you got to 2500).

 

^^^ Jev beat me to this point as I'm writing here, but I will continue...

 

 

 

I'll use IAD as an example because it's my home airport and I know local procedures pretty well.

 

Say you're coming in on the HYPER5 arrival and are going to be flying the ILS Runway 1R approach.

(Have the chart open for this discussion: http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1412/05100IL1R.PDF)

 

The HYPER5 brings you in to the east (on the right side of the chart), heading southbound. A controller would likely vector you in as close to MOSBY as possible, assuming there isn't a lot of traffic.

 

That being said, you can expect the following:

  • You'll be on LNAV/VNAV while on the HYPER5
  • You will get a vector off of the STAR before TICON and onto the approach just south of MOSBY
  • You will get a descent instruction from the STAR's last 4000 altitude restriction to the approach's 3000 restriction until MOSBY just before you get vectored off of the STAR
  • You will be cleared onto the approach at this point
  • You will maintain 3000 crossing MOSBY
  • Between MOSBY and WAXIN you should descend at your discretion to 1900
  • At WAXIN, you will follow the glideslope indication on the PFD (note the maltese cross at WAXIN in the vertical profile view - this is the glideslope intercept point)

Since controllers can only vector you in with a maximum of 30 degrees from the LOC heading (011 in this case - rounded to 010 for the purpose of the final vector), dial in a heading of 340 in the HDG window. Just prior to MOSBY, the controller will give you an instruction to descend and maintain 3000. Roll the altitude window down to 3000 and use either FL CH or V/S to descend (I'd recommend V/S this close to the airport - it's a little more smooth, while FL CH can be abrupt). Once the magenta line crosses by MOSBY, select HDG SEL. The plane will begin turning to the pre-selected heading 340. Arm the LOC mode.* Once the LOC is captured, ensure you are past MOSBY and then descend (using V/S) to 1900 (you can make your descent nice and smooth for G/S capture by setting the green banana right on WAXIN by adjusting your V/S up/down as necessary). Once you're in a descent, arm APP. Ensure G/S is captured and you are fully configured for landing. Enjoy the ride.

 

*This is one of those rare moments where you should arm LOC first, and then APP.

 

 

*** I'm hoping that's thorough enough, but I'm also at work, so I'm slightly distracted. If you need clarification on why I gave any of these instructions, let me know ***

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while some may scoff at what I am about to say.................in a final act of sheer desperation and frustration I need to come clean. Even on autoland I still do not

 

know how to shoot an ILS approach correctly, the little knowledge I have gleaned comes mainly from Utube and from videos put up by kids (with wrong

 

information) taking a break from playing PACMAN and the like, but you get my gist. I fly the PMDG 777 because of its high level of accurate automation (which I

 

need after my accident) to enjoy this wonderful hobby/addiction. I learnt from watching these videos that 2500 was always what you should set your altitude at

 

prior to commencing an ILS approach.

 

Can someone on here kindly give me the correct procedure

Patric....I dont mind helping you or anyone else and will keep doing so (because iI enjoy it)......but why are you trying to fly such an advanced addon while missing the basic knowledge required to shoot an ILS?

 

Practice with a Cessna or something like that (there are General aviations addon available that are stunningly realistic I read) and do a quick IFR type rating.

 

I am sure there are missions available for free (maybe AVSIM library?) that will help you there.

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while some may scoff at what I am about to say.................in a final act of sheer desperation and frustration I need to come clean. Even on autoland I still do not

 

know how to shoot an ILS approach correctly, the little knowledge I have gleaned comes mainly from Utube and from videos put up by kids (with wrong

 

information) taking a break from playing PACMAN and the like, but you get my gist. I fly the PMDG 777 because of its high level of accurate automation (which I

 

need after my accident) to enjoy this wonderful hobby/addiction. I learnt from watching these videos that 2500 was always what you should set your altitude at

 

prior to commencing an ILS approach.

 

Can someone on here kindly give me the correct procedure

The old habits are the best ones IMHO. ;)

 

Ralph Freshour, a member here, created a series of excellent video tutorials for ILS approaches which explain it all extremely well for the NGX. The procedures he demonstrates are equally applicable to the 777. All on his YouTube channel.

 

As for the 2500 ft altitude thing, in lieu of hunting for the right charts, a reasonable rule of thumb is to set 2000 ft above field elevation, rounded up to the nearest 100 ft. Saves time and also avoids any unnecessary embarrassment at places like KDEN or FAOR.

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Ralph Freshour, a member here, created a series of excellent video tutorials for ILS approaches which explain it all extremely well for the NGX. The procedures he demonstrates are equally applicable to the 777. All on his YouTube channel.
These are the same videos I am writing about in post #4. I believe Ralph was an instructor for Boeing on the 737.

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I believe Ralph was an instructor for Boeing on the 737.

 

Sim guy, but not the 737 from what I recall. Older stuff, like the L1011.

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Sim guy, but not the 737 from what I recall. Older stuff, like the L1011.

Boeing never made the L-1011. Lockheed manufactured it. And Ralph worked for Boeing.

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Boeing never made the L-1011. Lockheed manufactured it. And Ralph worked for Boeing.

Yes, I know who made the L1011. I don't recall hearing Ralph worked for Boeing...

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From Ralph's bio:

 

"I spent 20 years as a Flight Crew Training Instructor for Lockheed, McDonnell Douglas, Boeing and two major airlines."

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"I spent 20 years as a Flight Crew Training Instructor for Lockheed, McDonnell Douglas, Boeing and two major airlines."

 

Right. I think I recall him telling a story about the 727 sim.

 

...still, I don't think he was ever on the 737, or at least not the NG, based on his questions here on the forum.

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Boeing never made the L-1011. Lockheed manufactured it. And Ralph worked for Boeing.

and Lockheed according to his bio.

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Thank you guys. I have looked  at Ralph Freshour''s  Utube channel. Very informative and well structured. I have sent him an email asking him to point  me in the direction to watch the relevant video on the ILS approach . The way I had picked it up from reading books etc, that you picked up the LOC  first and then later on the G/S .  My problem is I 6/10 fail to capture the G/S as I have  always been to high. Most PMDG aircraft will not allow you to pick up the G/S first,.

 

A few posts back someone asked me why I did not learn on a less complicated aircraft ? my answer to that would be, if you were aware of my previous job, it would go a long way in explaining

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A few posts back someone asked me why I did not learn on a less complicated aircraft ? my answer to that would be, if you were aware of my previous job, it would go a long way in explaining

That would have been me.

 

I do not know what your previous job was..... I dont see how that has anything to do with starting at the basics either to be honest....but all I meant is that it might be a bit much to try to understand all the systems of a modern airliner and at the same time learning to fly by Instrument flight rules (and procedures).

 

The videos you have been pointed to will probably put you on the right track, but as additional info:

The idea and puropse of an ILS is that you stay clear of obstacles as long as you follow the black lines.

That means both lateral as well as vertical!

 

When you try to follow the vertical path (GS captured) while not yet following the lateral path (loc) then you might fly into terrain.

The fact that there are no obstacles on the ILS inbound course, does not mean there are no obstacles anywhere.....like a mile left or right of the inbound course!

The CDU option "dont allow GS capture before Loc capture" prevents exactly that and that is why some airlines have their 777 setup like that.

 

So what you should do (as you have probably now found out) is stay at a safe altitude untill established on the lateral path (Loc capture). This altitude can be defined by the STAR, or by the ILS intermediate approach altitude (on the ILS chart) or ATC if radar vectored.

Or if you are at a self vectored altitude in FSX:

Since 99% of ILS have 3degrees glide path, all you need to do is multiply your height x 3 and that is your GS intercept point.

That is height mind you.....so you have to substract airport elevation from your altitude to find your height.

flying at 2000ft height: 2x3=6nm......so if you vector yourself closer than 6nm from the runway, then you will have passed that GS intercept point.

flying at 3000ft height: 3x3=9nm....so if you vector yourself closer than 9nm from the runway, again, you have already passed the GS intercept point.

 

Only after Loc capture can you be sure that further descend keeps you at a safe height above obstacles!

This is why many first press LOC...to capture the localizer and then once the LOC is captured they press APP switch to capture the GS as well. As mentioned many times by others you can also press APP straight away if you are at the correct height versus distance.....but you have to have some situational awareness in that case or (if you have the CDU set to "allow GS capture before loc capture") you might run into problems!

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Thank you guys. I have looked  at Ralph Freshour''s  Utube channel. Very informative and well structured. I have sent him an email asking him to point  me in the direction to watch the relevant video on the ILS approach . The way I had picked it up from reading books etc, that you picked up the LOC  first and then later on the G/S .  My problem is I 6/10 fail to capture the G/S as I have  always been to high. Most PMDG aircraft will not allow you to pick up the G/S first,.

 

A few posts back someone asked me why I did not learn on a less complicated aircraft ? my answer to that would be, if you were aware of my previous job, it would go a long way in explaining

As a rule of thumb, you need to position yourself about 8-10 miles from the runway threshold at about 2000' AGL. If you intercept the LOC there you will be able to meet the G/S at about 6 nm DME. The higher you are, the further out you need to be. If you have the ILS approach selected in the FMC then you should see the final approach fix waypoint in the LEGS page (usually next but one from the runway waypoint). Aim to be lined up on the LOC before reaching that point. The final approach fix will have an altitude shown for it which is the height you should approach it at.

 

My opinion is that if you can manage the 777 autopilot and systems then it's a great sim to learn things like this on. Using a simpler model won't help as the techiques are no easier and you may well learn bad habits from a less well designed sim.

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The very best thing to do is to go through the built in check ride, it's not only fun but you can actually learn a few things. Once you feel like you can read an approach chart, understand it, build it and fly it on a trainer, then you can start flying more complex airplanes.

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thank you Rob you are right when you say, you fail to understand what a previous job had to  do with it. I just meant my previous state of mind but I would just like to thank  you for your invaluable advice given so far.

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Please bear also in mind that there is a huge difference from the reality, in the 777 or whatever other simulation you do not have a F/O.

 

This leads straight to have a large amount of extra workload so do not be hurry to go on the automatic side of the hill :) above all in the beginning.

 

In addition, the simulation is excellent indeed but it might happen to be different from the reality under certain circumstances, an example ? 

 

A super interesting stuff is available just on the Tube, if you are precise enough to read all the comments made by real 777 pilots below where they uploaded a video of their job, you will read many questions to them and many super interesting answers by real 777 pilots as well, nothing is better than such a kind of knowledge IMO.

 

You will read that most of the times what plays a big role are the circumstances that lead to a certain procedure and these procedures may be flexible and not rigid as described on the manuals.

 

Remember young Skywalker, the theory usually is quite different from the practice :)  so do not be afraid to fly the plane and fly it " few miles ahead " !! ALWAYS

 

If you fail some procedure that's not a big deal, the important thing is flying correctly the plane, possibly looking outside the windows, not always necessarily looking at instruments. Old school way......

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Please bear also in mind that there is a huge difference from the reality, in the 777 or whatever other simulation you do not have a F/O.
 
This leads straight to have a large amount of extra workload so do not be hurry to go on the automatic side of the hill :) above all in the beginning.

 

This is somewhat of a common sim misconception. The regulatory bodies have requirements for multiple crew members more out of safety concerns for redundancy than because it's "too much work." I need only cite that many King Air operators have approval for single pilot operations, and I'd argue your (legal) work load in a King Air is well above what you'd experience as a single pilot in the 777.

 

So, while I see the argument as valid that you wouldn't be operating single pilot in a 777, the assumption that it is an unreasonable single pilot work load doesn't quite hold true.

 

 

 


A super interesting stuff is available just on the Tube, if you are precise enough to read all the comments made by real 777 pilots below where they uploaded a video of their job, you will read many questions to them and many super interesting answers by real 777 pilots as well, nothing is better than such a kind of knowledge IMO.

 

I'd question the validity of the comments there. It's often difficult to verify the comments and claims there, and you have to wade through all of the other ridiculous comments people post there. Even as someone who has a YouTube channel, I caution people from going there to find information as there is so much poor/false information there.

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Hello Patrico I think a very short flight, that enables you to repeatedly set up for ILS landings, will go a long way towards giving you a better feel for the process.  Below are the FMC waypoints that will inscribe a tear-drop shaped flight path that commences at Las Vegas Mccarran Airport Runway 01, circling over the city and suburbs of Las Vegas, before landing at the same airport on Runway 25L, less than ten minutes after takeoff.

 

This waypoint sequence is cut and pasted from a thread I started in the FS9 forum on the subject of short but eventful flights, and I urge you to try this flight for ILS practice.    Maccarran Airport is at 2067 feet elevation, so flying this short swoop at 200 knots airspeed, with say 4,500 feet set in the MCP altitude window, you will intercept KLAS RW25L 's center-line close enough to capture the localizer and glide slope with minimal altitude corrections.

 

Departing from KLAS RW 01, the 10-minute duration flight is as follows LAS010/8,  LAS015/9,  LAS025/10,  LAS040/10,  LAS050/10,  LAS065/9,  LAS075/8,  LAS080/7,  RW25L   

 

KLAS RW 25L's  ILS heading is 255 degrees, with a frequency 0f 110.75MHz.

 

To further shorten the wait time between ILs practice intercepts, you can use the "colon" key " ; " to save the last couple of minutes of this flight, just as your aircraft starts to bank right unto the runway center line of KLAS RW25L, and then simply hit reset after each successful landing, to hone the skills required at that key moment in time when the localizer is first acquired.

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This is somewhat of a common sim misconception. The regulatory bodies have requirements for multiple crew members more out of safety concerns for redundancy than because it's "too much work." I need only cite that many King Air operators have approval for single pilot operations, and I'd argue your (legal) work load in a King Air is well above what you'd experience as a single pilot in the 777.

 

So, while I see the argument as valid that you wouldn't be operating single pilot in a 777, the assumption that it is an unreasonable single pilot work load doesn't quite hold true.

 

 

 

 

I'd question the validity of the comments there. It's often difficult to verify the comments and claims there, and you have to wade through all of the other ridiculous comments people post there. Even as someone who has a YouTube channel, I caution people from going there to find information as there is so much poor/false information there.

 

 

Well, IMO there is no misconception because in the real cockpit a pilot constantly deal and work with an F/O, in the sim you are all alone.

 

I know there are addons like I guess FSCrew but that's not a matter of turning the engines on or moving the flap stuff, having an F/O means having a second human brain qualified for flying a jet.

Not to mention when you have also a Boeing Engineer sitting behind, you'll have some boredom moments you will never forget !  :P

 

That's a completely different experience.

 

 

Regarding the knowledge stuff, I forgot to say that this forum and the PMDG products are also the most valuable source of professional knowledge in the world and you are right, in the Tube you find many fake infos yes, but when a real 777 captain post a video of one of his real landing into rainy weather and he himself answers a lot of passionate question in the comments below the posted video, well, that's IMO one of the most valuable source of infos as well because it adds the " practice " point of view to the " theory " point of view coming from manuals.

 

That's amazing to learn how professionals work.

 

Then, I also like to watch many times the " May Day Air Disaster " episodes, based on real facts, that's also a good knowledge source !

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So, while I see the argument as valid that you wouldn't be operating single pilot in a 777, the assumption that it is an unreasonable single pilot work load doesn't quite hold true.

I have to step in here ofcourse!

 

The one thing you and most everybody else here are forgetting is......non normal operations.

(I know you were talking about normal ops)

 

In my opinion, one of the main reasons that there are two of us in the front is that when things go wrong it quickly becomes too much too handle for one brain.....or two hands for that matter!

 

Try flying the aircraft, doing memory items, talking to ATC, programming the FMC, reading and doing non normal checklists, EFB calculation for max landing weight with those failures and the runway condition (ice/snow?), overweight landing or fuel dumping checklist, adhering to rules and regulation and limits might require you to look things up in company specific QRH tables, talking to your company (engineering for example), talking to the purser so he/she can prepare the cabin for an emergency landing, talking to the pax....oh and stay calm and organized off course!

 

 

A two man operation is actually a lot more complicated than many think.

It helps to not be alone.....but without the SOPs we have today and without some CRM training it can become a hindrance to have a college that you have to order things.

 

For example during manual flight the "pilot flying" has to order the "pilot not flying" what buttons to press on the MCP panel.

Do you really know how every button is called and how you order that to your college so that there is absolutely no doubt as to what you mean?

I am telling you, it is much easier to just press a sequence of buttons than to order them!

 

"engage heading select, set heading 320, set 3000ft engage vertical speed minus 1000" pfffff much easier to just do it, but that is not how it works in a two man cockpit when the AP is not enaged :-)

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Patrick, I don't know how well versed you are in the basic stuff that private pilots learn in their first weeks of ground school regarding rules and regulations. But it might be worthwhile to buy a few books on these subject matters and entry-level texts on IFR flying as well. I know nowadays simmers seem to think that things are as simple as following the magenta line down to 2000 agl and arming approach. But, like someone stated here, if you learn the basics behind ILS, VOR navigation and other "old-school" stuff you'll get things easier and then all you'll have to worry about is learning to fly an aircraft that experienced captains spend months of intense studying and training to learn as well ;)

 

Rod Machado has some funny entry-level books which could help you. Maybe you've crossed that bridge already, but when I was trying to learn all these things alone 16 years ago without the benefit of these forums it helped a lot. 

 

Anyway that's my two cents. I know a little about your background and I have to say I admire your perseverance greatly! Welcome aboard!

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