I agree with the spirit of the original post.  Having owned and flown all MSFSims since year dot, and also dabbled in X-Plane and Aerofly FS, I got a shock when I first tried flying in GTA-5 last year, and even more so when I again flew in the latest version recently.  Not only is the graphics engine out of this world in GTA..but the ability to fly in a 'living, breathing' virtual world was an eye opener..   .

 

Don't get me wrong. I don't own GTA and I'm not a console fan (and also I dislike holding those PS4 blue-tooth game controller in my hands as they emit enough microwaves to cook your fingers ;-), ..Plus I acknowledge that GTA-5 is tweaked more toward arcade-style flying, and that FSX and X-Plane are far more advanced in the virtual cockpit and 'entire world's airports' department.  But for me the way forward has to be a flight-sim with a GTA-like open-world environment rather than what I've previously been used to...and so I might buy GTA when it comes out on PC this month simply for the pleasure of flying short flights in its stunning immersive world...and of course for the PC mods and tweaks which will expand the flying experience and realism even further.

 

..I mean, Imagine walking or driving to get to the plane of your choice in this sort of world.....

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRFuAPCHbAc#t=1m45s

 

.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBpg731PwxY#t=9m33s

 

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There have been threads from time to time pointing out how far civilian simulation has fallen behind modern capabilities, but since there's no obvious white knight to step forward (except possibly DTG) to help bring flight simulation up to modern standards, the situation remains stagnant, dependant upon modifications of programs that are increasingly showing their age.

 

Its why I keep an eye out for possible ways out of the impasse through things like Outerra.

Outerra would be amazing to use for flight simming,that just shows what our computers are capable of doing.

Perhalps you guys need to consider maybe Golf and then you can seek the perfect Club or Fishing...in search of the perfect rod and reel. We all love and look forward to progress but if perfection is the only thing you can accept then you most likely are going to have a lot of days with a sad face.

Perhalps you guys need to consider maybe Golf and then you can seek the perfect Club or Fishing...in search of the perfect rod and reel. We all love and look forward to progress but if perfection is the only thing you can accept then you most likely are going to have a lot of days with a sad face.

 

Hmmmmmmm.... I heard modern standards. I heard nothing at all about perfection.

Hmmmmmmm.... I heard modern standards. I heard nothing at all about perfection.

 

Agreed.

 

Again and again I try going back to MSFS, and have even considered buying the latest X-plane, but its like "I've been here before.5 or 10 years ago".  Or to use the golf analogy. Technology has improved in leaps and bounds and I don't want to play with my old putter anymore.

 

Anyway, how's Outerra.doing H.F?  Has it progressed much in the last 12 months since you posted those nice vids?

 

.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0k3hmEVaeY#t=7m47s

 

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But for me the way forward has to be a flight-sim with a GTA-like open-world environment

Clearly we have opposed views, the last thing I dream about is ability to drive to the airport. Give me a well modeled airplane and immersive airport/weather environment instead. And their Vestra "jet" is not even an existing jet - this way they don't have to worry about any criticism how close they are to the real thing. Am I impressed about how the model the terrain? Perhaps but it is fake and with tiny coverage area.  And I see cloudless skies. Perhaps they could show how they model aviation weather (probably the most challenging part of flight sims today) and I see no evidence they even do that or that they do it better than the rest. For arcade experience could be good enough but unless they start tackling issues that every flight simulator grapples with I can't make judgement how good their technology really is.

the last thing I dream about is ability to drive to the airport. Give me a well modeled airplane and immersive airport/weather environment instead.

 

Hi Michal,

 

GTA also has immersive ai airports, plus weather environment with turbulence and full-crash-damage modelling including window shatter from bird-strikes and hard landing etc.

 

The jet in the previous video isn't fake but is based on the Cirrus Vision SF50.  More than likely Rockstar use their own 'made-up' names and modified aircraft (such as Luxor/Learjet) so that manufacturers aren't spooked at the sight of their planes being shot down by a spotty youth with a rocket launcher, ;-)

 

The scenery land-mass in GTA is in fact 'real' and is based on the Los Angeles area.  It may be small in flight-sim terms, but it's a very dense multi-layered environment, meaning it is a highly detailed virtual world with working airports, runways, roads, scheduled buses, trams, trains and subways (all with full Ai passengers), plus police patrols, Ai pedestrians and animals etc.  In short GTA a vibrant place to fly and drive around, and personally I much prefer short flights in GTA nowadays to flying over a quite sterile scenic back-drop in other sims.. But thats just me..

 

Like I said though, this is the console version of GTA. The PC version will allow tweaks and mods for even greater flight realism, as will future version of GTA.

 

I'm not saying GTA will evolve to become a fully fledged flight-sim, but rather its cutting edge graphics and immersive scenery provide an enjoyable alternative to short flights in current flightsims I reckon,and points the way to how scenery will look in future sims.

 

Emergency landing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzp9irhVx8#t=5m46s

 

Belly Landing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzp9irhVx8#t=10m2s

 

GTA weather... (Relax)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzZPtl_bffE#t=0m3s

 

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Agreed.

 

Again and again I try going back to MSFS, and have even considered buying the latest X-plane, but its like "I've been here before.5 or 10 years ago".  Or to use the golf analogy. Technology has improved in leaps and bounds and I don't want to play with my old putter anymore.

 

Anyway, how's Outerra.doing H.F?  Has it progressed much in the last 12 months since you posted those nice vids?

 

.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0k3hmEVaeY#t=7m47s

 

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Its progressed. But its path is not necessarily towards a pure flight sim. More like its developing the tools for a simulator sandbox that can pretty much do whatever a given developer might want. That being said, the flight sim fans have been speaking loud and clear, with two new planes released just in the last few weeks, and an infusion of funds from the military through the TitanIM project may put the whole endeavour on much more sound financial footing.

 

They have hired new people and are moving forwards. Stay tuned. (Site can take a while to load) http://titanim.net/www/

 

 

The jet in the previous video isn't fake but is based on the Cirrus Vision SF50. 

Clearly it's panel has little to do with SF50.

Weather effects are geared toward ground-level, not atmospherics in flight, in short it can't be compared with a flight-sim hence it is impossible to judge how their software would perform under demands of a typical flight sim environment.

Clearly it's panel has little to do with SF50.

 

First you said the GTA jet wasn't an existing jet, and now you say the panel has little to do with the SF50.   The panel is a functional panel.

 

Weather effects are geared toward ground-level, not atmospherics in flight,

 

Like I said, there is in-flight turbulence and rain etc in the current GTA-5. Future versions and updates mean ongoing expansion and refinement, including in-flight physics, weather, handling and control.

 

 

in short it can't be compared with a flight-sim

 

The whole point of my original post was to compare GTA-5 with existing flightsims.

 

 

it is impossible to judge how their software would perform under demands of a typical flight sim environment.

 

Like I said, GTA-5 is a 'real-world' multi-level virtual environment, meaning that as well as aircraft there is an entire virtual city, countryside and seaside going on...and all of this on consoles.  Rockstar could  if it wanted focus all its power and attention on the only the aircraft side, but thats not its remit (for now anyway;-)

...But GTA as it stands does a good job in showing us what can be done in terms of modern-day graphics and realism with proper utilisation of resources.

 

I'm not anti-MSFS flightsim. I've been a long term user. But like the original poster, I'm a bit  weary of the graphic engines in the old school sims.

..And as I said before, I'm not saying GTA is a fully fledged flight-sim, but rather its cutting edge graphics and immersive scenery provide an enjoyable alternative to short flights in current flightsims,and points the way to how virtual flying will look in future. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CainaICVJP8#t=9m53s.

Don't get me wrong: I like the GTA franchise very much and do enjoy the flying part in it.

 

GTA's map, however, is probably the size of luxembourg. That means you can place and texture every single object by hand. FlightSims maps are the size of the whole world, which means you cannot place (or even revise placement of) every object by hand. Rather, you have to rely on data sets in order to automatically generate them. This will always mean, that visual immersion will suffer, because your FlightSim world will only be as good as the data you're using. And no data can be as good as 'hand-crafted' tiny worlds of sandbox-open world games.

 

Imho, the smartest way for flightsims to go is a modular approach: you build a state-of-the-art platform and let other guys provide better data sets, custom texture sets, realistic weather engines, specialized atc-modules, complex planes and so on. That is basically how FSX has survived over the last 8 years, though it was probably never meant to be such a modular platform, which is maybe why so many problems (can) occur when you install addons.

GTA's map, however, is probably the size of luxembourg. That means you can place and texture every single object by hand.

 

Hi Dom,

 

Glad you enjoy flying in GTA. 

 

For me personally a densely populated Luxembourg area is plenty room enough for flying around in.  I've no need to fly the entire world..and indeed many popular flightsims over the past 25 years didnt try to take on the whole world but instead focussed on smaller areas.  For me the novel thrill of flying in GTA is that you have an entire city, countryside and coastal region beneath your wings (hopefully;-) and can land and interact with that virtual world if you wish.  Flying in my FS9 and FSX sims now feels flat by comparison, but I appreciate that MSFS and X-Plane are still invaluable sims for long haul and navigation etc.

 

But my main purpose for commenting on this thread wasnt to promote GTA but rather to add ideas to the debate about how we get the latest graphics engines into decent flight simulators.

 

You raised some good and valid points.

 

 

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I do see your point and I guess nobody would have anything to say against prettier and better performing graphics suited to modern graphics cards, processors and APIs.

 

But judging from Microsofts abandonment of the FS franchise and the rather slow progress of X-Plane and P3D, I do not think a full-scale flight simulator, that suits both visual and simulatory needs and caters to all kinds of flight enthusiasts (from those who are happy flying around Luxembourg to those who like to sit 12+ hours in a T7 from Singapore to New York) can be done by just one company. It will be interesting to see, what Dovetails approach to their own MS flight based sim will be.

Personally, I'd be satisfied with a simulator, that covers Europe, because I like my 1-2 hour IFR flights on routes that I actually flew as pax in real life. But my hopes are they take the engine, expand it to the whole world and make it easy for the popular addon devs to add to it (and achievable for us to buy that stuff).

 

Until then I'll wait for the GTA5 release for PC and see what happens when I try to land a 747 on a highway...

It will be interesting to see, what Dovetails approach to their own MS flight based sim will be.

 

Yes, it should be interesting. Having dabbled in their very realistic Rail Simulator a few years back I respect this company. The only concern I have about their forthcoming flight-sim though is that it's 'Microsoft based'. Seems there is no getting away from the old sim ;-)  But Dovetail do make great train cockpits with very realistic rain on the windows both front and sides, so look forward to that in Dovetail-X1 flight-sim.

 

 

...to those who like to sit 12+ hours in a T7 from Singapore to New York)

 

I never actually believed people spent that long on a virtual flight in one sitting, but I guess they do.  Reminds me of the Fast Show comedy TV sketch where a chap called Colin roped his obviously bored girlfriend into being a passenger on his long-haul virtual flights. He'd leave the 'cockpit' every now and again  to ensure she was comfy in her seat (sofa)..and put a blanket over her knees and serve her coffee, then rush back to take control of the aircraft. Wish I still had the clip.

 

 

I'll wait for the GTA5 release for PC and see what happens when I try to land a 747 on a highway...

 

Almost as much fun as this lot online....