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kmw510

Unable 270 Kts at XXXX

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I get the "unable 270 kts at XXXX" message quite often and can't see any reason why. I fly standard routes from Flight Aware and use the current SIDS and STARS. Is there anything I might be doing wrong or is this common?

 

 

Kevin Wilson

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I see them regularly. The cause is often that the cost index results in a lower speed during the descent than the STAR requires.

 

For example, the BDEGA1 arrival into SFO requires a speed of 280 knots at, between others, LOZIT. However, the cost index I entered results in for example a planned speed of 270 knots during the descent.

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Is there anything I might be doing wrong or is this common?

 

It's common for STARS that require certain speeds, but your ECON DES SPEED is lower than it (the FMC is monotonic - meaning in the descent, it will only plan to get slower, and not speed up). Just change the DES SPEED to the speed for the crossing restriction...ideally well before T/D so you can just delay the T/D and not carry thrust above idle to maintain the speed after beginning the descent.

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When I get this messege on FMC I delete the speed on the right with DEL, so the route with altitude and speed is recalculated again. Pay atention not to delete the waypoint on the left, of course.

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When I get this messege on FMC I delete the speed on the right with DEL, so the route with altitude and speed is recalculated again. Pay atention not to delete the waypoint on the left, of course.

 

No. Absolutely no. Doing this would put you at risk of a pilot deviation, which should be avoided at all costs. Granted, the sim doesn't come with an FAA inspector to give you a hard time about missing a speed or altitude, but your procedure is incorrect.

 

Modify the speed in the VNAV DES page.

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In addition to what Kyle said, at least here in Europe I often see an "at or below" restriction in a SID coded as a hard restriction in the NAV data. Changing the type in the LEGS page (e. g. from 280/... to 280B/...) should help you get rid of the error and also help to meet that specific restriction. Check your charts to see what restriction it should be.

 

Regards

Oliver

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Check your charts to see what restriction it should be.

 

Good point. I've seen similar here, too. As someone who usually takes the "always verify with the chart" angle, I agree with you 100%. That's one thing that bothers me on VATSIM, for sure. Since vatpilots very rarely read charts anymore, the controllers rarely ever assign SIDs in the NY area, as they all require reading the chart, and not just selecting the SID in the FMC. So, instead of getting a SID assigned, as would be realistic, I usually get assigned vectors in my clearance. During my readback, though, I usually drop in "able LGA4," or similar, to let them know I can potentially be trusted. Read those charts!

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I departed EPGD last night on VATSIM expected a SID but got cleared to FL90 !

 

Have to say, since moving from terrible ATC software is a major difference

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Getting assigned a SID, luckily, is the norm here. Likewise, you will need your charts for the approach, for in a lot of places - for instance Frankfurt EDDF and Munich EDDM - you'll get transitions to final approach OR simply a direct to a waypoint on a transition, which means you're cleared to fly the whole transition. Nearly impossible without charts.

 

Regards

Oliver

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Getting assigned a SID, luckily, is the norm here. Likewise, you will need your charts for the approach, for in a lot of places - for instance Frankfurt EDDF and Munich EDDM - you'll get transitions to final approach OR simply a direct to a waypoint on a transition, which means you're cleared to fly the whole transition. Nearly impossible without charts.

 

Right, but a lot of EU SIDs are pilot-nav. Here, we have mostly hybrid and vectored, but some are pilot nav. The issue here is that hybrid and vector cannot be fully programmed into the FMC. So, on VATSIM, you get a pilot who selects it in the FMC and happily assumes the plane is just going to do what it needs to do.

 

Nope.

 

The result is that, over time, ATC stopped assigning them because they realized most pilots were accepting the SID assignment and then just not flying it as published.

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Good point. I've seen similar here, too. As someone who usually takes the "always verify with the chart" angle, I agree with you 100%. That's one thing that bothers me on VATSIM, for sure. Since vatpilots very rarely read charts anymore, the controllers rarely ever assign SIDs in the NY area, as they all require reading the chart, and not just selecting the SID in the FMC. So, instead of getting a SID assigned, as would be realistic, I usually get assigned vectors in my clearance. During my readback, though, I usually drop in "able LGA4," or similar, to let them know I can potentially be trusted. Read those charts!

 

That's odd -- every time I've been out of JFK I've been assigned a SID and climb (normally the MERIT3/Canarsie climb back to LHR depending on time of day and runway configuration) without having to ask.

 

Certainly over on this side of the pond, if a SID is available it will be assigned.

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In the UK i've been assigned SIDs just over at Poland EPGD i got cleared straight to FL90

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for instance Frankfurt EDDF and Munich EDDM - you'll get transitions to final approach
I have a question about transitions at EDDF. I think I read on a chart or a forum that the STARS are only used in case of lost communication and the transitions are essentially like STARS they we think of in the United States. Is that correct or not?

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I have a question about transitions at EDDF. I think I read on a chart or a forum that the STARS are only used in case of lost communication and the transitions are essentially like STARS they we think of in the United States. Is that correct or not?

 

Little bit of a mis-interpretation, I believe.

 

They're filed in the plan as a contingency for lost comms. That way the ATC facility knows what you're going to do if you lose comms. That being said, you do not select it on the DEP/ARR page until the STAR is assigned by the controller.

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I have a question about transitions at EDDF. I think I read on a chart or a forum that the STARS are only used in case of lost communication and the transitions are essentially like STARS they we think of in the United States. Is that correct or not?

I found this note in the AOI, page 1-40:

If no further CLR received beyond ETARU/REDLI/ROKIM, proceed direct FFM and follow previous

cleared STAR.

Use of transition PROCs only when cleared by ATC.

Also, between 22.00 and 4.00 local time, specific STARs should be used according to the charts (UNOKO, ROLIS, PSA and KERAX 1G or 1R).

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They're filed in the plan as a contingency for lost comms. That way the ATC facility knows what you're going to do if you lose comms. That being said, you do not select it on the DEP/ARR page until the STAR is assigned by the controller.

 

Actually, since you file the STAR and then get your clearance "as filed" or - and I don't exactly know if it's Germany-specific or not - "flight planned route", you're cleared to fly the STAR all the way to the clearance limit, which is either your destination airport ("cleared to destination Hamburg") or a certain waypoint that is explicitly named in the STAR chart, for instance NOLGO in Hamburg (see here).

 

Of course, more often than not you'd get cleared again for the STAR (talking VATSIM here), just to make sure. Or you get vectored right away or get cleared to fly a transition, which is basically just an overlay to the radar vector pattern. But yes, Michael, it's more likely to fly a transition or get vectored than to fly the STAR. But then again, lots of transitions begin at the clearance limit of the STAR (see here)...

 

Does that make sense?

 

Regards

Oliver

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But then again, lots of transitions begin at the clearance limit of the STAR (see here)...

 

...which pretty much confirms everything I said in my earlier post:

 

Since the clearance limit is the beginning of the STAR, if you're still talking to the controller, then you do need a specific assignment and clearance to continue. Lost comms, you proceed AVEF (assigned, vectored, expected, filed), which means that unless a controller has told you otherwise, you fly what you filed. For both of those STARs you linked to, I can't begin flying them until I get a clearance past that end fix (or the beginning fix of the STAR).

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I see now what you're getting at. NOLGO was a badly chosen example on my part. The thing is, that if you file a STAR and get cleared "flight planned route" this clearance includes the STAR as well, unless you hit a clearance limit on your way.

 

It all comes down to "read the charts" :wink:

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I see now what you're getting at. NOLGO was a badly chosen example on my part. The thing is, that if you file a STAR and get cleared "flight planned route" this clearance includes the STAR as well, unless you hit a clearance limit on your way.

 

It all comes down to "read the charts" :wink:

 

Makes perfect sense. Thanks for the clarification. I guess I just haven't come across an airport that doesn't have a clearance limit right at the beginning. Then again - admittedly - I haven't been doing much flying in Europe.

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Have to say, since moving from terrible ATC software is a major difference

 

Agree.  Its one of the best changes I have ever made to my flightsimming.

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Its brilliant i have model matching with my my traffic 6 and its great seeing BA and EZY at the gates!

 

Yest i flew to LPPT following a BA over the bay of biscay, his contrails was just next door to my other airway :)

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Its brilliant i have model matching with my my traffic 6 and its great seeing BA and EZY at the gates!

 

Yest i flew to LPPT following a BA over the bay of biscay, his contrails was just next door to my other airway :)

 

I can't wait to track a contrail on VATSIM.    Yesterday I flew EGKK-LDSP  and return, but everything was fairly quiet until I got back to a very busy, rainy London airspace with ATC

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Yeh had alot of TCU around EGCC at south of london CTR when i departed!

 

Its brilliant knowing its not AI

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Little bit of a mis-interpretation, I believe.

From the German Vatsim chart showing STARS for Frankfurt. This is boxed and printed in red for emphasis.

 

 

"STARs are not used as normal procedure at Frankurt

 

Used as Lost Com procedure only.

 

Transition to Final Approach used instead as Standard Arrival

see Transition Charts / GPS/FMS RNAV Arrival.

 

Expect South-Transition leading to South-RWY as Standard."

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From the German Vatsim chart showing STARS for Frankfurt. This is boxed and printed in red for emphasis.

 

To be honest, I wouldn't trust VATSIM as a factual aviation source.

 

Regardless, where do you load this procedure?

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