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lorenzog89

DTG: What would you like to see in a new Flight Simulator?

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DTG, I'm tired of FSX, and don't want an FSX replacement. Try something new for once.

 

X-plane = FSX with blade element theory

 

Flightgear = Independant attempt at FSX

 

P3D = FSX with more glossy paint

 

Flight = FSX's little brother. With more glossy paint.

 

None of them have gained mass acceptance.

 

Why do we keep desperately trying to repeat the same thing again and again and again? (even using variations of the same old microsoft technology and trying to recreate the exact same ecosystem) It's like the movie groundhogs day. Isn't anyone a bit tired of doing FSX over and over?

 

Are we really in that deep a rut?


We are all connected..... To each other, biologically...... To the Earth, chemically...... To the rest of the Universe atomically.
 
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DTG, I'm tired of FSX, and don't want an FSX replacement. Try something new for once.

 

In a perfect world they would use Outerra as engine and ditch MS Flight engine altogether. You're right that they are using an old (but nonetheless proven) system of creating scenery and planes.

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Of course, if DTG's offering looks like FLIGHT, part two, I will probably just sigh, rest my head on my keyboard for a few moments, then sit back to watch the show, but........... dang.

 

Flight would have been a wonderful thing to build upon a few years ago, but time has moved on, and without extremely major graphical changes, that ship has likely sailed.  :unsure:

 

And P3D, the entertainment version, will not excite me.


We are all connected..... To each other, biologically...... To the Earth, chemically...... To the rest of the Universe atomically.
 
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Isn't anyone a bit tired of doing FSX over and over?

 

Are we really in that deep a rut?

This has me puzzled. Oh and BTW you forgot DCS: FSX + TacPack set in Georgia.

 

If you want a flight sim, but don't want 'FSX for a new generation', what do you actually want? Last I checked, aviation hasn't fundamentally changed, we still get on at airfields, take off from runways, navigate using navigation tools, perhaps do something funky like shoot something or drop water on a fire, ask for permission to land and then taxi to wherever the aircraft needs to be put. All of that was done by FSX on a grand scale and anything that does it is going to be compared closely to FSX.

 

Even if they move to Outerra or any other 'omni-sim' engine, the fundamental components are the same. You will just have 'FSX but you can get out of the plane', or GTA with good physics....

 

This is not a dig, I'm genuinely curious as to what you are after. Missions, challenges, 'life of a pilot'?

 

Me, I just want a good flight sim, whatever engine its in. OMSI with wings....

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Even if they move to Outerra or any other 'omni-sim' engine, the fundamental components are the same. You will just have 'FSX but you can get out of the plane', or GTA with good physics....

 

Every idea we have seems to derive from FSX, and all of our requests are essentially for the return of fsx. I don't think it's a full use of the resources now available on modern computers. Fsx is a flight sim with the word flight in capital letters. The world around it is essentially an afterthought, and that goes directly against the trend of modern programs that give much more equal weight to the world as well as the vehicles within it.

 

I dont want anymore ultra-mega-hyper-super detailed airports and planes surrounded by scrambled jigsaw tiles. I want a solid, living world that makes me believe in it as much as technically feasible as I move over, under and through it. If I hop out of the plane and jump in a car or whatever other activities become available (and the possibilities should be nearly endless) I don't want this anymore, which is what we have gotten from FSX tech:

 

I want this!: What X-plane started to do, and never finished, because in traditional flightsims, the world is...... an afterthought.

 

More FSX thinking: make room for the third parties. Fine, I love them too, but beyond that, make room for the users! Make altering the scenery and adding to it so simple a child could do it. Let the users, make mods and crowd-source expand the world. Don't just settle for a rehash of the current top-down ecosystem.

 

Don't think dedicated flightsim, think an interlaced sim-world made not just for flight fans, but for everyone to explore.

 

And no, I don't think DTG will do this in a zillion years, but I can dream, can't I?  B)


We are all connected..... To each other, biologically...... To the Earth, chemically...... To the rest of the Universe atomically.
 
Devons rig
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Don't think dedicated flightsim, think an interlaced sim-world made not just for flight fans, but for everyone to explore. 

 

So, to sum up, you want an omni-sim.

 

I guess my concern with that is that any "activity", be in driving, flying, sailing or running with scissors, is generally so hard to do well that it's almost inconceivable that any single developer could take on more than one without AAA+ level budgets (and even then you may hit technical limitations).  There is definitely a market for omni-sim games (as GTA demonstrates), but despite the commonality of transport options (and some shared users), that's a distinct market from the more focused "serious" sim markets, be it the Assetto Corsa, the OMSI or the FSX crowd.

 

Whilst that Cities:Skylines video is cool (and I'm aware it's not designed as an omni-sim), it wasn't long before the sheer jankiness and unreality of the world became distracting and I was laughing at the train taking corners that would give it's passengers broken bones, and the way the cars drove like madmen with cut brakes.  I'd love to see someone take an omni-sim engine (such as Outerra*) and build it out to do one activity well, but in a way that doesn't negatively impact it's ability to work with and integrate other activities.  

 

For me it boils down to not seeing the point of a sim that simulates lots of things, but simulates them poorly, only once you can simulate an activity well does the ability to seamlessly swap activities become a positive.  If you are asking a flight sim forum what it takes to make a simulator that caters to them well, don't be surprised if they come up with things that sound a lot like FSX, because, whilst there are a lot of things all three main sims do badly, covering the essentials of what it takes to simulate aviation is not one of them, if any new sim isn't capable of that at least, it's so much chopped liver as far as flight simulation goes.

 

 

*Other engines and technologies are available, your mileage may vary, minimum contract terms apply

Edited by n4gix
Removed excessive quote. Again.

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Besides, about DCS, at least they are developing a new engine with lots of fancy stuff in it we were really waiting for.


Chock 1.1: "The only thing that whines louder than a jet engine is a flight simmer."

 

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I don't see DCS as being FSX+tacpac+georgia. As a physical engine it is much superior. For one, it has so much more built into organically than something like FSX. Just off the top of my head, you don't need to get Ezdok or FSUIPC. It's all built in. It's standardized. I think if you could combine what they have there with an FSX sized geography, and throw in a few civilian planes, people would flock to it. All the planes available for it are at a level that make 99% of FSX developers drool. I think that if a nextgen flight simulator were built upon the platform of DCS, it would be a very good sim indeed.

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I don't see DCS as being FSX+tacpac+georgia. As a physical engine it is much superior. For one, it has so much more built into organically than something like FSX. Just off the top of my head, you don't need to get Ezdok or FSUIPC. It's all built in. I think if you could combine what they have there with an FSX sized geography, and throw in a few civilian planes, people would flock to it. All the planes available for it are at a level that make 99% of FSX developers drool. I think that if a nextgen flight simulator were built upon the platform of DCS, it would be a very good sim indeed.

 

It wasn't an entirely serious suggestion, rather an extension of HiFlyer's "everything is FSX with bells on" analogy   :lol:

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I don't see DCS as being FSX+tacpac+georgia. As a physical engine it is much superior. For one, it has so much more built into organically than something like FSX. Just off the top of my head, you don't need to get Ezdok or FSUIPC. It's all built in. I think if you could combine what they have there with an FSX sized geography, and throw in a few civilian planes, people would flock to it. All the planes available for it are at a level that make 99% of FSX developers drool. I think that if a nextgen flight simulator were built upon the platform of DCS, it would be a very good sim indeed.

 

The developers mentioned that EDGE would theoretically be capable of utilizing a map the size of Earth. Populating this map would be a different matter, but the possibilities are there.

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For me it boils down to not seeing the point of a sim that simulates lots of things, but simulates them poorly, only once you can simulate an activity well does the ability to seamlessly swap activities become a positive.  If you are asking a flight sim forum what it takes to make a simulator that caters to them well, don't be surprised if they come up with things that sound a lot like FSX, because, whilst there are a lot of things all three main sims do badly, covering the essentials of what it takes to simulate aviation is not one of them, if any new sim isn't capable of that at least, it's so much chopped liver as far as flight simulation goes.

 

Cities skylines is just an example. It shows that what i'm talking about is probably technologically feasible. Its also possible to do it all on a more realistic level as well. The it can't all be done in one sim idea is (to me) just a variation of the older "flight sims need the total resources of the machine" meme. Its simply no longer necessarily the case. What is the case is that we seem not to have the financial resources to support development of a dedicated civilian sim all by ourselves (or else, where the heck is it?) and without expanding the tent and inviting a broad range of other types of users, its probably civilian simulation that's going to eventually be chopped liver.

 

Except for FSX, of course.

 

Such a thing might fit DTG very well. Right now, in their expansion, they are stretching their resources across several different programs. If I were them, I might be very interested in a single program where all target markets were combined in a way that all the various different teams could have a hand in development, instead of working simultaneously to support several different engines.

 

(if it were technically feasible)


We are all connected..... To each other, biologically...... To the Earth, chemically...... To the rest of the Universe atomically.
 
Devons rig
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Cities skylines is just an example. It shows that what i'm talking about is probably technologically feasible. Its also possible to do it all on a more realistic level as well. The it can't all be done in one sim idea is (to me) just a variation of the older "flight sims need the total resources of the machine" meme. Its simply no longer necessarily the case. What is the case is that we seem not to have the financial resources to support development of a dedicated civilian sim all by ourselves, and without expanding the tent and inviting a broad range of other types of users, its probably civilian simulation that's going to eventually be chopped liver.

 

Except for FSX, of course.

 

But it's not "it needs the full resources of the machine", it's "it needs the full attention of the developer".

 

Simulation, not just flight simulation, is hard.  Really hard.  Just look at the amount of development time that a modern sim such as Assetto Corsa or DCS 2.0 require, even ignoring the image generation/world manipulation, as well as the endless arguments about car handling, flight models etc....  The world is just one component of a simulation (albeit an expensive one to produce), and hence why I'd be delighted if someone picks up Outerra and runs with it.  Right now it's just a tech demo with a few gizmos, what it needs is one fully fleshed out mainstream product to prove to the world that it isn't going to remain an interesting, but ultimately irrelevant, hobby project.  

 

Off the shelf or shared engines are great, and they are probably the (distant) future, but until they are fleshed out with enough content to make them credible single purpose simulation alternatives, they can best be described as "neat", and users are going to continue to stick with tried and tested single use simulators, at least those that are concerned about completeness of the simulation (and, let's be honest, anyone that is customising a sim setup, in the same way that most people here are, fits neatly into that category).  

 

The danger of an omni-sim (as opposed to providing a common engine for multiple interconnecting sims) is that it lacks both the vision needed for an AAA game and the specialist knowledge needed for a single purpose sim and ends up somewhere in that awkward middle ground between GTA (which is user story driven with great plausible world but does the simulation bit poorly) and full-bodied simulation (which does the simulation extremely well, but provides no story and less plausible world), and I'm not entirely convinced that's a viable market segment....

 

It comes down to personal priorities, I'm quite happy to move forwards, if there is such an option, but I don't personally regard sacrificing completeness of simulation for some extra "immersion" to be a forward step.  If that means I'm playing Prepar3D 2.5 in 2050 via an emulator, so be it.  At least it will probably run on my phone by then, and I can play it whilst riding in my self-driving hovercar.

 

As always, YMMV  :lol:

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users are going to continue to stick with tried and tested single use simulators, at least those that are concerned about completeness of the simulation (and, let's be honest, anyone that is customising a sim setup, in the same way that most people here are, fits neatly into that category).  

 

Unfortunately, if I was a DTG stockholder, and thought they were aiming for that demographic, I would have some really tough questions. I suspect they will prop up FSX for that demographic and go after a wider audience with their new effort, at least at first.

 

The danger of an omni-sim (as opposed to providing a common engine for multiple interconnecting sims

 

I would say not necessarily. I'm trying to avoid banging the Outerra drum, but that program is designed to use multiple engines for different things. (enough from me on that) You are right, a single engine trying to do it all would be outrageously complex (probably) so.... the solution is to think out of the box and try something else!

 

I'm not entirely convinced that's a viable market segment....

 

I'm not convinced we are a viable market. It says something that the only active civilian sims (besides flightgear) all have other means of income besides us. I don't think they would exist, otherwise.  :unsure:

 

 If that means I'm playing Prepar3D 2.5 in 2050 via an emulator, so be it.

 

If something doesn't change, it may come down to that. DTG took a niche train sim and made it popular by the expedient of what some would call "dumbing down" so that more casual people wouldn't run away from it.They've turned a once nearly microscopic niche into something profitable for their company. I don't see why they would abandon that formula now.

 

Which means those looking for the heights of complexity are probably going to be flying FSX a long, long, time.

 

Or, on the other hand, using Microsoft tech, they might be able to provide enough backwards compatibility that PMDG and others could shoehorn their products in there. That would make many happy, but then you would likely be talking about yet another souped-up iteration of FSX, and that would probably make at least as many people yawn.

 

As I said, they are a brave company, treading a fine line.

 

Hopefully they can surprise us all! (cause' they almost certainly can't please us all)


We are all connected..... To each other, biologically...... To the Earth, chemically...... To the rest of the Universe atomically.
 
Devons rig
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Unfortunately, if I was a DTG stockholder, and thought they were aiming for that demographic, I would have some really tough questions. I suspect they will prop up FSX for that demographic and go after a wider audience with their new effort, at least at first.

 

 

I'm not convinced we are a viable market. It says something that the only active civilian sims (besides flightgear) all have other means of income besides us. I don't think they would exist, otherwise.

 

If something doesn't change, it may come down to that. DTG took a niche train sim and made it popular by the expedient of what some would call "dumbing down" so that regular people wouldn't run away from it.They've turned a once nearly microscopic niche into something profitable for their company. I don't see why they would abandon that formula now.

 

But that's why I'm so keen to see an extensible sim, rather than a closed shop.  Look at Train Sim, an awful lot of DLC pushed heavily by DTG on Steam, a lot of it is awful, and they are clearly making a killing on it.  But the fact that it is open to third party addons (many published through companies like Aerosoft) means that there is scope for higher quality addons, within the constraints of the engine.  If I was being a cynic, I would suggest that allowing the more specialized end of the community to piggyback on the base engine keeps everyone in the same broad church and reduces the likelyhood of a credible competitor emerging.  Not that I would be that cynical, no...  I'm the trusting sort.   :angel:

 

I don't expect DTG to cater for the realism junkies, they've not done so to date with Train Sim, nor do I see that as the way TS is going, but I do hope they leave open the door to more advanced users piggybacking via addons.  This leaves us in an "FSX for the next generation" situation, but if DTG can capture both segments without taking the risk of developing at the high end (and taking either a cut from sales or selling them things like terrain), I don't think that's an unattractive proposition. 

 

 

I would say not necessarily. I'm trying to avoid banging the Outerra drum, but that program is designed to use multiple engines for different things. (enough from me on that) You are right, a single engine trying to do it all would be outrageously complex (probably) so.... the solution is to think out of the box and try something else!

 

You don't have to convince me of the potential of Outerra, but I would like to see it become something other than potential in my lifetime.

 

But what I'm trying to work out, how would you sell a jack of all trades sim?  Train Simulator, Farming Simulator, Assetto Corsa, FSX, they all play to particular "itches", whilst they all approach their subjects in different ways with varying levels of goals, hand holding, progression etc, there is one fundamental unifying factor, they all have a strong hook on which to hang a structure appropriate to the genre, they scratch a particular well-defined itch and do so very well.  That's not something that a more general omni-sim can easily claim, without spending biblical amounts of cash on a generalized "mathematical simulation model of everything", or going down the story route and competing with the GTAs of this world.

 

I'm all for outside the box, but there are fundamentals that don't change, planes have runways and radios, trains have signals and tracks, cars have roads.  My fantasy ideal is Outerra* or similar providing the base world with plug-ins, want to play trains?  Buy the train module and add your scenery and trains.  Want to fly planes?  Buy the plane module, add airports, nav airds and airports.  But the base engine would need to be capable of handling (either out of the box or through specialized modules) the fundamental necessities for each of the modules.  Otherwise it's just a different game.  Not necessarily better or worse, it's just not a replacement for FSX/XP/P3D.

 

 

 

But as for DTG, if they stick to current form, providing the fundamentals are there (with an appropriate SDK), then I'm not worried.  They can hang whatever structure they need on it in order to sell it to your average punter, push as much mediocre DLC as they want via in-game advertising, but as long as the fundamentals are sound and can be added to, they can have their cake and eat it. 

 

 

*again, other engines are available, if symptoms persist consult your doctor, paid for by Republicans for Obamacare

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But what I'm trying to work out, how would you sell a jack of all trades sim?

 

Well, as a sandbox, essentially. The reason would be the same as for why there's tennis in GTA5: People have short attention spans. A little bit of this, a little bit of that, makes for greater longevity of interest. Star citizen is more like where modern programs are heading: Flying through space, either as a soldier or pirate or whatever, trading, ground combat, upgrades, exploration....... DLC.....

 

I'm not suggesting a flight sim aim for all that: just saying there has to be greater variety than spam spam spam and spam. (or planes airports, planes planes and planes)

 

Games have changed, and Flightsims really haven't. Except for graphics upgrades (and even greater complexity) they offer pretty much the same basic experience they did 15 years ago.

 

It really is time to try something new.


We are all connected..... To each other, biologically...... To the Earth, chemically...... To the rest of the Universe atomically.
 
Devons rig
Intel Core i5 13600K @ 5.1GHz / G.SKILL Trident Z5 RGB Series Ram 32GB / GIGABYTE GeForce RTX 4070 Ti GAMING OC 12G Graphics Card / Sound Blaster Z / Meta Quest 2 VR Headset / Klipsch® Promedia 2.1 Computer Speakers / ASUS ROG SWIFT PG279Q ‑ 27" IPS LED Monitor ‑ QHD / 1x Samsung SSD 850 EVO 500GB / 2x Samsung SSD 860 EVO 1TB /  1x Samsung - 970 EVO Plus 2TB NVMe /  1x Samsung 980 NVMe 1TB / 2 other regular hd's with up to 10 terabyte capacity / Windows 11 Pro 64-bit / Gigabyte Z790 Aorus Elite AX Motherboard LGA 1700 DDR5

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