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lorenzog89

DTG: What would you like to see in a new Flight Simulator?

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(I will give any option for growth a fair chance)

How about to gives us what always has been there, THE WORLD as fair chance? As it is now all your favorite 3rd parties have THAT chance already. Who knew? But in FLIGHT nobody did if I remember correctly and you still call it a (stretch out by you) success?

 

Now that's a real WOW.

 

Cheers,

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How about to gives us what always has been there, THE WORLD as fair chance? As it is now all your favorite 3rd parties have THAT chance already. Who knew? But in FLIGHT nobody did if I remember correctly and you still call it a (stretch out by you) success?

 

Now that's a real WOW.

 

Cheers,

 

Hmmmmmmm... When I get into these conversations, it seems I have to always take into account my words going through personal filters. Could you point out exactly where I called FLIGHT a success?

 

You won't be able to, you know.


We are all connected..... To each other, biologically...... To the Earth, chemically...... To the rest of the Universe atomically.
 
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But if DTG get enough purchases elsewhere then it may nnot be too worried about this community?

 

Very true, we may not be their target market.  But they asked....  And looking at the Steam thread, a lot of the points made are similar.

 

They are of course, free to completely ignore us  :lol:

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FSX is a program whose existence is supported by the fact that there are simply no alternatives, and there are no alternatives because the community that keeps it alive is too small to support the creation of an alternative.

 

Let's back up a little.... You're in a flight simulation community, one on the more serious end of the spectrum, talking about a new flight sim, and acting concerned that the community wants a flight sim that builds on the biggest strengths of existing sims, i.e. their flexibility, rather than taking some "other" way.  But other than a grand unifying simulation of everything to satisfy those with short attention spans, you don't seem keen on articulating what they should do differently, beyond it should be "anything but FS11".  

 

If you want anything but a sceptical reception, there needs to be something to move us forward, something to actually debate other than your dissatisfaction with the status quo.

 

I'm not going to line by line, as we are going round in circles, other than to say this.  FSX failed commercially, in fact the whole flight simulation market pretty much died down about that time.  It went from almost mass market to niche, part increasing complexity (though FSX out of the box isn't especially complex), part the rise of consoles, part the proliferation of online game distribution, part fashion. You seem to labour under the assumption that being niche is inherently bad, that we must somehow, for our own sakes, move the whole thing more mass market, that it will be better for us all over there in the nice shiny corner with a logo on the front page of Steam, whatever compromises we make on the way.  This is where I disagree.  

 

Right now, I can take pretty much any sort of plane, any place, any weather and do pretty much anything I want with it.  That's not a bad situation at all, in fact that's pretty awesome.  For anything to replace the sims we have, my starting point is FSX levels of capability.  Now, just so we are clear, I mean base FSX, not FSX + PMDG + Orbx + ASN.  As long as the base is strong, DLC or addons can make up the rest, the question is really how to make the base strong.

 

DTG are smart people, they know the money is in the DLC (where ACES fell short) I know we are not their target market, I know they will not cater for the realism junkie, I said as much a few posts back (so I'm not sure why you are still banging on about shareholders).  All I hope is that they leave the door open for add ons that do cater for the realism junkies, even if they decide it's not commercially viable to provide themselves.

 

Ultimately, if DTG FS ends up being a closed shop that can't cater for the more serious end of the market, it's not the end of the world.  

Edited by n4gix
PLEASE STOP EXCESSIVE QUOTING!!!!!

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Let's back up a little.... You're in a flight simulation community, one on the more serious end of the spectrum, talking about a new flight sim, and acting concerned that the community wants a flight sim that builds on the biggest strengths of existing sims, i.e. their flexibility, rather than taking some "other" way.  But other than a grand unifying simulation of everything to satisfy those with short attention spans, you don't seem keen on articulating what they should do differently, beyond it should be "anything but FS11".  

 

Its simple. Start simple. The mountain of complexity that the current community has climbed is mostly of interest to the community, and I don't believe is necessarily a large concern for the wider audience necessary to create the large user base needed for a self supporting simulation. Its a secondary concern. Start as FSX did from a simple base, and don't pour so many resources into the sim at first that you have no chance of recovering them in a reasonable time period. (over complexity)

 

Your market is people interested in flight simulation, and your program is open enough that enthusiasts have a place, but are not allowed to steer the market into non-relevance to the wider audience at the introduction of the program, and maybe not in the medium term either. FSX-SE is there for that. Focus on missions/structured activities, (FLIGHT had an excellent engine for that) that help maintain interest and support that vigorously. Dont be afraid of grumbling about balloons and hoops and etc. Many of your truly new users will barely be able to stay in the air, and you need to make learning how to control the plane seem like fun, not a job.

 

Encourage and reward exploration. Encourage competition. Anticipate and allow for play. If a plane is military, allow it to shoot at stuff, even if it's only basically laser tag in the air in special zones, and your victims explode into glowing red stars!! Allow whacky crashes! Let people create Avatars and encourage them to interact cooperatively. Allow people to copilot or even just ride with their friends. Get people interested and involved!

 

Create surprises! Somebody's sighted something strange over Nome Alaska, hey, lets go check it out!!

 

Let them go off-reservation, and drive that red pickup behind the hanger. Ditch 2006 graphics, they will be laughed at. The world has to look modern and believable, colorful and alive. People will try silly things just to see if the sim gives them the freedom to do so. Can you hit a bird? Do giraffes scatter when buzzed? Study how non-enthusiasts are using the program, (we already know what pilots and enthusiasts want) and respond quickly and accordingly when possible.

 

If the world is too ambitious for the allowed budget, create smaller more detailed areas packed with activity, and release other areas on a steady basis.

 

Abandon backwards compatibility that will limit future options. Allow easy access to tools that allow users to become involved as easily as possible in the design process. (mods)

 

There are tons of ideas to be tried.


We are all connected..... To each other, biologically...... To the Earth, chemically...... To the rest of the Universe atomically.
 
Devons rig
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There are tons of ideas to be tried.

 

Now we are getting somewhere....  :lol:

 

It's past this idiot's bedtime so rather than go off half cocked, I just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to articulate your thoughts, and I don't think we are as far apart as you think  B)

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You seem to labour under the assumption that being niche is inherently bad, that we must somehow, for our own sakes, move the whole thing more mass market, that it will be better for us all over there in the nice shiny corner with a logo on the front page of Steam, whatever compromises we make on the way.  This is where I disagree.  

 

Nope. I actually don't care that much because I feel the current market is approaching stasis and can remain that way probably for many more years. Certainly X-plane (for instance) could probably coast on until the end of time. But the economics are not changing, and if new users and growth beyond a niche is desired (and for some, i'm sure its not) then things need to be shaken up a bit

 

I think that even for users who enjoy maximum complexity, FSX is like a camel waiting for that final stick that will break its back. How much more complex can PMDG planes really get using this engine? A new engine needs to be somewhere on the horizon, and if it's not Outerra than it seems its DTG to the rescue, and DTG would be insane to try the same old thing and expect a different result.

 

X-plane? I'm not sure sometimes that Laminar even cares: they are in their own universe..

 

P3D?  :unsure: I keep thinking no, without being completely able to articulate why.

 

Hmmmmmmmmmm.............


We are all connected..... To each other, biologically...... To the Earth, chemically...... To the rest of the Universe atomically.
 
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Please, when quoting a previous post, trim off all but a sentence or two to maintain continuity. It is completely unnecessary to quote an entire wall of text.

 

Keep in mind that there are folks who log in with their smart phones! :P


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Dovetail should avoid what FSX and Xplane models they won't work with new generation of users and prefer quality over 25,000 airports done by vector data. GTA V model combined with Eurotruck and American Truck Simulator scenery to have general avaiton, planes cars and semi trucks in a condensed world would be awesome. I figure it's futile one-up FSX or Xplane world nowdays. Gotta combine train, truck, driving sims or the project will fail for dovetail.

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GTA V model combined with Eurotruck and American Truck Simulator scenery to have general avaiton, planes cars and semi trucks in a condensed world would be awesome.

 

I thought and saw GTA V with airplanes already and yet you are still here with us (FSX, no disrespect). I am guessing cause all the ones you mentioned belong to a different genre than Flight Simulation®. One fit all will be a master of none.

 

I got a friend who the other day bought FSX-SE for $5.00 after many years sneering at it. The seed had finally landed. Will see what happen now from there.

 

Cheers,

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FSX didn't fail but it was set up for a PC market that never happened. Even today we still don't have it. By the time SP1 and SP2 and Acceleration came out, the damage was done. Like with Win 8 not having the Start button.

 

I won't bash X-plane cause that's another long story too. Doesn't bother me. Better have it than not to.

 

Cheers,

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I got a friend who the other day bought FSX-SE for $5.00 after many years sneering at it. The seed had finally landed. Will see what happen now from there.

 

Even I brought FSX-SE at that price.

 

As for X-plane, I tried to get into it, and even be a supporter in threads like this: http://forum.avsim.net/topic/429465-x-plane-10-add-on-resources-freeware-and-payware/

 

But as I said, eventually it became clear X-plane marches to its own unique drummer.


We are all connected..... To each other, biologically...... To the Earth, chemically...... To the rest of the Universe atomically.
 
Devons rig
Intel Core i5 13600K @ 5.1GHz / G.SKILL Trident Z5 RGB Series Ram 32GB / GIGABYTE GeForce RTX 4070 Ti GAMING OC 12G Graphics Card / Sound Blaster Z / Meta Quest 2 VR Headset / Klipsch® Promedia 2.1 Computer Speakers / ASUS ROG SWIFT PG279Q ‑ 27" IPS LED Monitor ‑ QHD / 1x Samsung SSD 850 EVO 500GB / 2x Samsung SSD 860 EVO 1TB /  1x Samsung - 970 EVO Plus 2TB NVMe /  1x Samsung 980 NVMe 1TB / 2 other regular hd's with up to 10 terabyte capacity / Windows 11 Pro 64-bit / Gigabyte Z790 Aorus Elite AX Motherboard LGA 1700 DDR5

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I got a friend who the other day bought FSX-SE for $5.00 after many years sneering at it. The seed had finally landed. Will see what happen now from there.

 

Many years of sneering at FSX-SE?? Many months, maybe.

 

Flying Penguin has really summed it up...

Yup, we are a Flying Sim community, discussing what we want/demand/would like from a gaming community. Yup, as mentioned, so much is being thrown at the FSX engine & one day, it will fall over with the complexities. However, it has performed quite well(ish) over the last 8 odd years.

 

I still say that there are perceptions that our hobby has become fragmented, with so many options now that we have never had. I have a lot of respect for those developers that have to decide what do do & for who.

 

So, fundamentally, we have been reasonably pretty happy with what we have, so far, while searching for the Holy Grail. Us oldies plodding on, newbies joining us occassionally.

 

To monetize any new sim that gets released, a target market obviously has to be established. Do they go for the existing simmers, target gamers on their existing distribution base, or try to be everything for everybody, whislt keeping shareholders happy? (more important that us simmers). It could be intersting to see how the simmer market on Steam compares to their gamer market, & how many new installs of FSX-SE there have been, compared to existing FSX'ers getting it as well.

Maybe that could be the core question to define any sim release.


Robin


"Onward & Upward" ...
To the Stars, & Beyond... 

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It could be intersting to see how the simmer market on Steam compares to their gamer market, & how many new installs of FSX-SE there have been, compared to existing FSX'ers getting it as well.

 

I actually took a look at that a while ago. When FSX-SE was first released, there were a lot of curiosity purchases, and the eventual Steam sales also kicked things up a notch. If you looked at the reviews, there were a lot of new users with questions and opinions, but that's changed noticeably. Now, when you look, the reviews are almost entirely people whose comments easily identify them as long time simmers. My impression is that after the initial flurry, people may have eventually begun wandering away. (history repeats)

 

X-plane reviews have done something very similar, with the addition that many recent reviews are now actually strong warnings from simmers that people looking for anything simple should stay away.  :blink:

 

On the other hand, if you went by the reviews, Train simulator is one of the awfulest things ever created, and users armed with water balloons are closing in on the DTG offices in droves, so.........

 

Hmmmmmmm....... I kind of like train simulator, even though I think it looks dated as (add appropriate expletive here)

 

Its all a mixed bag, and not sure what it's possible to read from it.


We are all connected..... To each other, biologically...... To the Earth, chemically...... To the rest of the Universe atomically.
 
Devons rig
Intel Core i5 13600K @ 5.1GHz / G.SKILL Trident Z5 RGB Series Ram 32GB / GIGABYTE GeForce RTX 4070 Ti GAMING OC 12G Graphics Card / Sound Blaster Z / Meta Quest 2 VR Headset / Klipsch® Promedia 2.1 Computer Speakers / ASUS ROG SWIFT PG279Q ‑ 27" IPS LED Monitor ‑ QHD / 1x Samsung SSD 850 EVO 500GB / 2x Samsung SSD 860 EVO 1TB /  1x Samsung - 970 EVO Plus 2TB NVMe /  1x Samsung 980 NVMe 1TB / 2 other regular hd's with up to 10 terabyte capacity / Windows 11 Pro 64-bit / Gigabyte Z790 Aorus Elite AX Motherboard LGA 1700 DDR5

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