Trying to achieve the Dream of Smooth Stutter Free Simming

[Bobsk8 12,735]

How you think reposting information from a NASA article is misinformation is beyond me. Where was a strobe light ever inferred or talked about at all?  Just because a CRT has scanlines and a LCD  is changing the pixels is irrelevant. We still have refresh rate and FPS and this is the crux  of this discussion. Sorry if you take it as a personal attack , but it's not. 

 

I don't take it as a personal attack, I just see, as I already stated, that you don't know much about the topic, which I taught for over 20 years. . 

[vgbaron 3,627]

Vic, will you please stop inferring that my and other systems are not set up correctly. I have been doing this since day one of flight sims and take exception to you continually beating the same drum with regard to system setup. why can you not accept that you are not the only one who can set up a system correctly. Even though you say you accept that "some people's eyes are more sensitive" you still seem to think we should be fine at 20 fps.  

 

Where has anyone said their sim bounces around at 30+ fps. I run a home built cockpit with 3 screens at 6000x1080 resolution + a further screen for gauges and at 30 fps it certainly does not "bounce around" (unless in cockpit mode using EZCA) but it does have a few stutters at low level in turns,which I find acceptable and a limitation of my hardware, what I do not like are the micro stutters that occur every couple of seconds. If I remember correctly Rob referenced this some time ago as being caused by the sim producing long and short frames, hopefully at some point LM will address this (perhaps in P3D 3) and yes they do still occur when using a single 1920x1080 screen.

 

Mick

Mick - it's a case of if the shoe fits. There are FAR more people like you who know how to set up a system. If what I say doesn't apply to you, ignore it. That's the way of generalized posting.

 

BUT I'll say t again - if you cannot get your system smooth at 20 - you don't have it set correctly. As far as smooth at 30,40,50 etc - that becomes more hardware specific but if you hardware prevents you from smooth at 20 then you have some serious issues.

 

Remember, we have a wide worldwide audience in these forums - there are many who just lurk for info - they have varying levels of computer proficiency. When they start out chasing the FPS holy grail they are already in trouble. My point is to give them a base to start with and adjust as necessary.

 

The question always becomes is it NECESSARY to run your sim at 30+ to get perfect enjoyment? On a GENERAL basis, I say the answer is no.

 

So unbunch your shorts, my post is directed towards those who ARE having stutters at 30 and 20 etc.

 

Vic

[GSalden 4,657]

Ok guys, to get back in Fs mood :

 

Flying over the Netherlands near The Hague.

 

https://youtu.be/saW9pAgBG54

[Murmur 3,944]

The question always becomes is it NECESSARY to run your sim at 30+ to get perfect enjoyment? On a GENERAL basis, I say the answer is no.

 

What do you mean by "GENERAL"? I think it should be clear by now that a lot of people find 20 fps not enjoyable, even if very "smooth" (in the meaning of steady fps); while a lot others find it enjoyable instead.

 

So, how can you define it "GENERAL"? For me and a lot of other people, it is necessary to run at 30+ fps to get perfect enjoyment.

 

 

[mickatmian 52]

 

 

BUT I'll say t again - if you cannot get your system smooth at 20 - you don't have it set correctly. As far as smooth at 30,40,50 etc - that becomes more hardware specific but if you hardware prevents you from smooth at 20 then you have some serious issues.

 

Vic, I give up you are only listing to yourself and do not appear to take into account anyone else's posts or opinions.

Anyway for me back to flying (at an enjoyable 30 fps)

Have fun at 20 

 

Mick

[vgbaron 3,627]

So, how can you define it "GENERAL"? For me and a lot of other people, it is necessary to run at 30+ fps to get perfect enjoyment.

Sorry if English is not your native language - google GENERAL - maybe you will understand my statement.

 

Vic, I give up you are only listing to yourself and do not appear to take into account anyone else's posts or opinions

I listen to and respect everyone's opinion - reread my post - and then try to UNDERSTAND what I posted rather than react.

 

Enjoy your 30's and I'll enjoy my 20's - at the end of my day we'll both enjoy it , unless we screw up the landing.

 

Vic

Ok guys, to get back in Fs mood :

 

Flying over the Netherlands near The Hague.

 

https://youtu.be/saW9pAgBG54

Is that YOUR rig Gerard? Fabulous! Looks like you've put a lot of work (and $$$) into it. Well done Sir!

 

 

Vic

[GSalden 4,657]

Yes Vic, that's mine..

Thank you !

 

Tomorrow I will make a vid at daylight.

[Poppet 710]

 

 

Is that YOUR rig Gerard? Fabulous! Looks like you've put a lot of work (and $$$) into it. Well done Sir!

Yes very cool looking,  the extra monitors really does bring it to life 

[ADamiani 470]

I want to thank all those who are writing n this topic, because it is one of the mot interesting to this old simmer, who remembers a Commodore 64 struggling to show 4 frames per second at Meigs (what was supposed to be Meigs).

 

In these 30 years many things have changed, most for the better, but I think we have sometimes lost our bearings. I have.

 

When we had FS4 my dream was 12 fps, which seemed unattainable, then with FS5 it was 18 fps, because a new sim, called Airline Simulator, came out, that showed how 18 CONSISTENT frames per second were enough to enjoy the ride.

 

I think that we got too attached to fps, that we ended up like those audio nerds (my other hobby) who judge sound by the numbers instead of listening through their ears.

 

As a mathematician, and machine learning researcher, I know the limits of numbers. I often say to my students: "when reality knocks at physics' door, it's physics that must leave town, and mathematics follows with chalks, blackboards and everything".

 

So, after reading this topic, including some excellent contributions by Steve, I made a few experiments and now my mind's made up. 

 

My present system is an old but honest 2600K@4.5 GHz, a 4GB 970Ti, 1920x1200 resolution, two Samsung SSD's, one for Win7 Pro and one for P3D2.5. Both SSD's are more than half empty.

 

My flightsim policy for the future is:

 

0) No config hocus-pocus

 

1) Set the limit @20fps. Gauge all settings so that my flight will NEVER fall under 20fps. This means that I can have a collection of different cfg files depending on: Aircraft, Scenery, Weather.

 

Smooth.

 

2) Buy a new rig only if either:

 

   a) it allows me to significantly improve my settings while maintaining my 20 smooth fps

 

   b) it allows me to maintain the same level of detail while getting to 30 smooth fps

 

3) Rinse and repeat aiming @ 60 smooth fps, and/or 4K.

 

5) NEVER buy a new scenery or aircraft if it makes me lose smoothness. It's a threshold effect, so it's pretty obvious to check.

 

So now I am eyeing a 6700K with 970 (or 980) video card. Do you believe that such a system will give me that extra kick over my present one?

 

Thank'you very much.

 

Andrea

[SteveW 1,792]

 

If I remember correctly Rob referenced this some time ago as being caused by the sim producing long and short frames, hopefully at some point LM will address this (perhaps in P3D 3)

I mentioned what causes that in the post above yours Mick:

 

If we set 20fps on a 60Hz refresh we see each frame three times. If we set 30fps, we see each frame twice. If we set the fps at somewhere in between we get half a buffer filled before the screen displays the buffer. So the old frame is shown with some percentage of next frame drawn on top, that's tearing. We can hold back the buffer until the screen has refreshed so we don't see a tear. But then, periodically we get a micro stutter as the frame rate does not fall in line with the monitor refresh.

So, how can you define it "GENERAL"?

Have fun at 20

You guys giving vic a hard time about 20fps. Doesn't it seem obvious to recommend someone new at this; start at 20fps fixed and work up? Recommending to all and sundry to start out at 30 means getting lots of discusions about stutter, methinks.  :Shame On You:

 

[Beardyman 604]

I have a feeling that limiting frames inside FSX is less effective than in NVIDIA inspector.

Problem is that inspector lowest limit is 29 frames.

Any solution for that ?

[SteveW 1,792]

"limiting frames inside FSX"

 

When we use the FSX/P3D internal limiter, this is actually a function of MS D3D. This function invokes the Look-Ahead buffer, which takes extra time to compute, and targets the next sim frame physics time (position, motion) for the current time + the time interval of the fixed frame rate. So at 20fps the next frame will be computed for 1/20s, or 0.05s on, from the current time. Each frame of the look ahead buffer will be computed for this time period.

 

If we use Unlimited, and set an external frame limiter, the next frame is computed against the time the most recent frame took to compute.

 

The apparent increase in performance when using Unlimited setting is because no look ahead frames are produced, the sim shows every frame regardless of the time it takes to compute.

 

We can see the effect of unlimited: Park in a complex plane at a complex airport, so your frames are naturally lower than the refresh rate of the monitor. Take the outside view and keep it panning, note the rotation speed of the panning increases and decreases as the view complexity changes.

 

So in other words the internal Fixed fps setting is for powerful machines able to cope with pre-rendering. If we don't get success with the internal fixed frame rate setting, we don't have the overall power in the machine for the settings chosen.

[Beardyman 604]

Steve, thanks for explanation. Will do some more testing.

[mickatmian 52]

 

 

You guys giving vic a hard time about 20fps. Doesn't it seem obvious to recommend someone new at this; start at 20fps fixed and work up? Recommending to all and sundry to start out at 30 means getting lots of discusions about stutter, methinks

 

Steve, I don't recall recommending that anyone should start out at 30 fps, what I am saying is for me personally, and it would appear others,  p3d/fsx at 20 fps is a no go. I can only describe what I see at 20 fps and that is every single individual frame, that is just the way my eyes/brain interprets signals.

Both yourself and Vic can call it smooth and I don't doubt you are right in that it has the same time frame between frames but for me it is just a series of jerks where as 30fps is smooth for me.

 

I would hope Vic has broad enough shoulders to take it on the chin, after all different points of view make the world go round.

 

Mick

[Beardyman 604]

Just finished testing.

YSSY FlyTampa + PMDG777 - rather heavy combination.

 

FSX internal limiter set for 20 / 30 / 60 fps - all three settings are giving slideshow, cannot say that there is any smoothness.

FSX internal limiter set to zero, NVI set to 30 plus 1/2 refresh rate - way higher fps, but what is more important almost perfect smoothness.

There is no comparison between FSX limiter and NVI, like heaven to sky.

 

I fully respect scientific approach to smoothness topic, but simply on my system ( 3,8GHz I7 / Win7 64 / 12 GB RAM ) NVI is ultimate winner.