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Martin Connor

Cold Weather Issues

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Having read other links regarding flap problems, I have to conclude that my symptoms don't quite match those of other people.

 

For the first time, I used the Cold Weather procedure SOP2, and everything went according to plan.  I was able to ask for Flaps 5 before arriving at the runway and running the Before Takeoff Checklist.  However, on my next flight on the same route, I just asked for Flap 5, which was set, then the FO announced he was doing the check for free movement, and cycled the flaps to 40 and back to zero.  No amount of shouting at him would persuade him to set flaps 5.  For FS2Crew, I have my Flaps lever on my quadrant disabled.

 

During the "OKAY to CLEAN UP" procedure, the FO doesn't bring the flaps up at all, and again no amount of asking politely will make him do it.

 

Finally, he forgets to switch off the Electric Hyd Pumps.

 

Temperature at take off was -1C

Landing 5C

 

Hope someone knows what is going on.

 

Martin

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Hi Martin,

 

What 'mode' where you in when you tried calling for Flaps 5 on the 2nd leg?  The current mode is displayed on the Main Panel.

 

Okay to clean up:   The FO will not retract the flaps all the way up during his after landing flow if the taxiway is contaminated, etc.  The logic is if there is slush, etc, in the flap tracks, you can harm the flaps if you try to retract them.

 

At the gate, it's assumed the engineer will inspect the flap tracks, and then you can bring the flaps up.

 

Note that in FS the flaps tracks cannot get gunked up, so you're always good to retract the flaps at the gate/stand.

 

 

Elec Hyd Pumps:  Our modelling is correct.  At the airline associated with the SOP  you're using, they leave the Elec Hyd Pump on for short turn arounds.

 

 

EDIT: If you have hardware assigned to your flaps, it can sometimes override the command sent by FS2Crew to control the flap.  That could be a factor in what you're describing as well.

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I have experienced things like this myself. More often than not, the FO does not retract the flaps at all after landing. But somethings he does. I haven't quite worked out the logic yet as to when/why he does and when/why he doesn't. When he does retract them, it's all the way. Never stopping at 15. I've been flying mostly in cold-ish operations as I've been mostly flying in Scandinavia lately. But I still am not sure if what I'm seeing is just these cold weather ops or what because it doesn't seem to stay consistent.

 

I know that is probably not much help to either of you. Like I said, im trying to figure it out yet. Until I do, I'm not sure it's a fault of fs2crew or just my understanding of what should happen when or under what circumstances. Probably the latter but it's interesting to see Martin posting the exact same things I'm seeing. I do not have an axis mapped for flaps either so hardware conflicting is not the issue for me.

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The trigger is ambient temp below 3 degrees C with precipitation present (snow/rain).  We can read the weather state out of FSX.

 

Are you guys using Active Sky Next?

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I just want to add that I had this problem too on my last flight.  

 

I departed with a temperature of M14.  After pushback and engine start, I requested flaps 5.  The FO announces flap movement test, extends flaps 40, then back full up.  After this, no amount of persuasion was able to convince him to extend the flaps again.  I searched the Main Ops and SOP 2 manual/tutorials and there's no reference to this procedure.  I tried to follow the "leave the flaps up for taxi" instructions under Cold Weather Procedures, but apparently I wasn't in that "flow" on the program: the FO simply refused to extend the flaps for takeoff.  At this time, the "mode selector" was reading "before takeoff checklist" (which I had not called for yet, pursuant to the SOP 2 tutorial).  

 

After extending the flaps myself and doing the takeoff, I later landed with a temperature of M13.  After exiting the runway, the FO cleans up the airplane but only retracts the flaps to 15.  No amount of persuasion could convince him to raise the flaps any further.  Had to do that myself as well.

 

I am using ASN SP4.  It stated, for both airports, that no precipitation was reported.  This was supported by fairly clear skies and no visible precipitation in the sim during the flight.

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Hi, 

 

I think the mess could come from requesting flaps before the FO does the flaps check. I always wait for to complete the flaps check before requesting the flaps and never has any problem.

Maybe could you try the same?

 

Note: I haven't use the cold procedure for a while now so I could be wrong. I'll check that again on my next flight.

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Hi, 

 

I think the mess could come from requesting flaps before the FO does the flaps check. I always wait for to complete the flaps check before requesting the flaps and never has any problem.

Maybe could you try the same?

 

Note: I haven't use the cold procedure for a while now so I could be wrong. I'll check that again on my next flight.

 

Interesting!  I am definitely guilty of this on my last flight.  It was my first time having cold weather procedures triggered-- and I wasn't actually planning on using them this flight but they were forced on me.  I didn't expect the FO to start a flap movement test (it's not even mentioned in any of the manuals that I've read so far) -- I wasn't even aware of the procedure.  So, once my engines were started and stable, I called for "flaps 5."  Since there's no documentation on this, I assumed that the FO's "flap movement check" announcement was the response to my "flaps 5" request; however, now it occurs to me that this could have simply been a coincidence.  

 

Was the FO just doing is flow and I simply happened to request flaps right before he announced his test or did I trigger the test by requesting flaps?

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If my memory serves me well, Iwould say that the flaps movement check is part of the FO's after start flow but I could be wrong.

Is the "flaps__" is displayed on the main panel while the FO does the flaps movement check or "after start"?

I cannot check that now as I'm currently flying the T7 on a long haul. 

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Alright, just a follow up here.  I just finished another flight.  This time, after engine start, I waited for awhile to see if anything would happen -- nothing.  So, pursuant to the CWP, I said "leave the flaps up for taxi."  This triggered the FO to start his before taxi flow, which INCLUDED the flap movement check.  

 

Interestingly, on this particular flight, he only let the flaps get to 15 before retracting ( last flight, the flaps were extended to full 40 before retraction ).  

 

In any event, after the flaps were retracted, I called for the controls check, the before taxi checklist, and then started my taxi out.  When I did it this way, I was able to call for takeoff flaps later as I approached the runway (pursuant to the CWP, I called for flaps before the takeoff checklist).  

 

Another "interesting" -- I'm not 100% sure, but it seemed like the software was waiting for me to extend flaps before I got my "cabin secure" notification.  It just seemed like it was taking longer than usual (it's very rare-- in the sim, at least --that I have to actually park at the runway hold short because I'm still waiting on the FA).  After I got my takeoff flaps and ran the checklist, my FA eventually chimed in.  Not sure if this is coincidence or intended.

 

Notwithstanding, this procedure allowed me to depart without having to take over the FO's actions.

 

However, after arrival, the FO pulled the flaps up to 15 as was stated earlier.  After I parked, however, I couldn't get him to retract them completely.  When I ran my shutdown checklist, he did note that the flaps were still extended, but refused to retract them.

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Tyler, at the gate in that scenario, you need to retract the flaps manually.

 

I'd have to look at the code, but 'cabin secure' notification is independent of the flaps I recall.

 

Cheers,

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Elec Hyd Pumps:  Our modelling is correct.  At the airline associated with the SOP  you're using, they leave the Elec Hyd Pump on for short turn arounds.

 

I'm using SOP1 and I've also noticed how all the HYD PUMPS are left ON even after the shutdown and secure checklist and I don't think that's normal is it?

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Everything is airline specific, but our real-world 737 pilots do it that way, so that's the way we model it.

 

There's a config option ("final leg") I recall, I'd have to check my own code.  If you set that to 'yes', the FO would turn off all the pumps.

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What I learned is that the ENG HYD PUMPS are normally always left ON where the ELEC HYD PUMPS on the other hand would normally be switched OFF between legs and certainly after the last leg for the day.

 

I'm aware of the option you mention where you can set if it will be the last leg but even when having that option set I have seen how all HYD PUMPS are left ON even after running through the secure checklist.

 

I wonder if this in some way could be related to cold weather procedures because it feels like I've seen more of this problem lately when most flying has been in cold weather.

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Hi,

 

I confirm that if you select last leg, then the EMDPs are left ON only if cold weather procedure is in use.
I assume that it is because the flaps will be retracted after the inspection at gate so no need to turn off the EMDPs to switch them on again a couple of minutes later.

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Hi,

 

I confirm that if you select last leg, then the EMDPs are left ON only if cold weather procedure is in use.

I assume that it is because the flaps will be retracted after the inspection at gate so no need to turn off the EMDPs to switch them on again a couple of minutes later.

 

 

Correct, I just looked at the code to refresh my memory.

 

Logic is:

 

If the flaps are physically in the full up position, and Final Sector is Yes as per the Option on the Approach Brief page, Electric Hyd Pumps will go off during the shutdown procedure.  Otherwise they're left on.  So they key is your flaps need to be up.

 

The Engine driven Hyd pumps are always left on.

 

Moreover, if it's not the final sector, the windows heat will remain on.

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