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Jimmy Helton

Autoland?

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I'm having an honest mystery with autoland.  When I follow the autoland landing checklist in the house pmdg NGX, I get an autoland every single time.  When I follow the same checklist on any livery add-on, I get the NO AUTOLAND message at decision height followed by A/T and AP disconnected at around 500 feet.  I've compared and contrasted the livery aircraft settings in the Operations Center with the default pmdg ngx and made sure they are identical.  This did not fix the issue.  I made sure to run the same landings several times in both house and Southwest liveries (KBNA RWY 20R) to make sure it wasn't a procedural issue, but the results are always the same.  On the HGS, it's always the same message at decision height: House PMDG = LAND3; Add-On Livery = NO AUTOLAND.

 

I'm at a loss as to the cause.  Yes, fail operational is set to on.  If it's not an aircraft settings issue, and its not a checklist issue, then what's left??

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Which livery add-on? Try without loading a pre-saved panel, maybe it's a panel problem.

 

Only one add-on livery or all of them have this problem?

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Now I am confused. You imply this happens with all liveries but all liveries use the same panel state?  It doesn't happen with the house livery, is this also the same panel state or is the aircraft loaded default state with engines running?

 

You haven't ruled out a bad panel state file.

 

Be assured that your problem is not common, most common reason for autoland failure is pilot error which you have made the case is not the reason.

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All liveries are loaded with a cold and dark panel state.  Autoland only works for the house pmdg.  Aircraft settings for each livery are identical to house pmdg.  Same checklist followed every time.  Results are 100% consistent. 

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Maybe four months ago.

It sounds like you are dealing with a fairly current panel state. Several years ago some of the panel states were corrupted but that cleaned up within several months.

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Since I have not resolved my issue, I thought it might be useful to share my autoland checklist so that we can rule out pilot error.  Although it did not seem to matter when I was able to land3 the house pmdg, I do slightly vary from the flow.  I do not usually set the ALT to zero and the DH to 100, since ALT hold is disengaged once autoland takes over.  I usually set my DH form baro to 50 feet radio, even though that's not on the checklist.  I've also found that intercepting the localizer above glide slope does not have to be done with the VOR/LOC button and can be done directly with the APR button.  As long as you are above glideslope when you capture the localizer and the g/s eventually turns from white to green before engaging the second autopilot, you should get land3 at 1500 radio.  However, this only works for me on the house pmdg.  I always ride down the glideslope on single channel and get "no autoland" at decision height.  I hand fly the last few seconds of the approach. This would make sense if only one of the nav radios were tuned, but not when they both are tuned to the ILS frequency.

 

 

http://carsten-rau.com/diverses/ivao/Checklist-737-PMDG-737NGX.pdf

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I've also found that intercepting the localizer above glide slope does not have to be done with the VOR/LOC button and can be done directly with the APR button

 

Hi,

 

You mean below the glideslope don't you? Because if you establish on the localizer above the glideslope, chances are that the aircraft may never catch the glide and as you set the altitude to 0, then the AP would remain in VOR/LOC and VNAV PTH and would never transition to G/S.

 

You will usually want to be established on the localizer below the glideslope. The choice between VOR/LOC first then APP or directly APP for me is quite simple.

If you have only the signal of the localizer and not yet the glideslope indicator, then you intercept with VOR/LOC only then once you receive the G/S, you press APP if you are under the glide.

If you receive both signals and you are under the glide, then you can press directly APP.

If you are above the glide when intercepting the localizer, then you are not in a very good situation, and you may anticipate a missed approach as it may not be possible to slow down and descent fast enough with the NGX to be stable in landing config soon enough...

however you may still try to catch the G/S using another mode like V/S but in this case you would not set you altitude to zero or you may end up with a crash on the ground.

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Yes, thanks for pointing out that typo. Obviously you can't catch the glide slope above it. Still doesn't explain the single channel issue though.

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Jimmy,

 

It may be the model, but it's my understanding that SWA doesn't do Autoland, it is all HUD.

 

blaustern

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What about Delta, United, American, and Alaska. No luck there either.

 

I'm willing to bet that you're not following the proper procedure to get everything set up in time. Fly Tutorial #1 with a SWA livery instead and report back.

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Sorry, same result.  My landing checklist is posted above for your reference.  It's almost like the liveries are stuck in fail passive.

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Sorry, same result.  My landing checklist is posted above for your reference.  It's almost like the liveries are stuck in fail passive.

 

Hi,

 

I don't think it is a matter of fail passive or fail operational. In both case if I'm not wrong the NG is capable of autoland.

The difference is that in the case of fail op, "land 3" is displayed while "land 2" is displayed for a fail passive system and that in case of a failure, the fail op will be able to perform the autoland while for a fail passive the pilot will have to take over control.

But if there is no failure, both system will perform the autoland equally.

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Sorry, same result.  My landing checklist is posted above for your reference.  It's almost like the liveries are stuck in fail passive.

 

That's exactly my point: you're using a third party checklist. Run the tutorial, using our workflow. Don't try to alter anything other than changing the plane. The aircraft (both ours and the real one) will not let you do something if it's not configured correctly.

 

Example:

The checklist you sourced says to add fuel at 20% N2, which isn't correct. It's 25%, unless max motoring is 20%. I can imagine there are other slight errors that are off just enough to cause issues.

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Eureka! Finally! I did some further study into the documentation provided by PMDG.  I'm not sure which one of these changes was the culprit but I was failing to do the following on my landing checklist: continuous ignition set (both engines), isolation valve off, engine bleed air valve off (both engines), apu bleed air valve on, and baro decision height set at 500. 

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They say that results are only good if they are repeatable.  Sadly, I just did redid the same landing three more times to make sure and no land3.  I will keep trying.

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How do I get my hands on the actual Boeing checklist?

 

There's one in the manuals, but the tutorial outlines the flow pretty well (in Tutorial #1).

 

 

 

They say that results are only good if they are repeatable.  Sadly, I just did redid the same landing three more times to make sure and no land3.  I will keep trying.

 

Seems to me that this points to just not having the procedure down - keep at it and it'll settle in.

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The issue is on the Operations Center. Execute it as administrator, and make the configuration changes on the liveries, then save it.

If you do not execute as administrator FSX recognizes the liveries as that is FAIL PASSIVE and you won´t have LAND3 while FSX recognizes the house liverie as FAIL OPERATIONAL.

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You have this in your checklist:

 

Decision Height (Ovhd Panel) Set 100 (ft)

 

On the Overhead panel? Don't you set it wit the knob next to the baro knob?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/iDU7UeL6LhM/maxresdefault.jpg

The one on the top right which says "STD".

 

And reagrding your height in the MCP: After capturing the glideslope you want to set the height to the go around height which can be found in the approach charts.

Also the DH will be set most likely to 200 ft Radio, you can also find this in the approach chart.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

I have the 737 for one week now and have no problems, autoland works with every single livery.

When I started with the 777 I had your problem if I was above the glideslope and the plane didn't capture it. Try to be lower than the final altitude some miles before the intercept point. Just to be sure.

 

Oh, and the second autopilot must be activated at a certain height.

Found this in another thread:

"If my memory doesn't fail, the 737 FCOM states the second autopilot must be engaged at least 1500ft AGL or it can't be engaged, for autoland, ILS freq. on both NAV radios,and course set in both CRS, just if you forget...the aircraft must be set for landing and the "before landing checklist" read before 1000ft AGL."

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Hi,

 

You mean below the glideslope don't you? Because if you establish on the localizer above the glideslope, chances are that the aircraft may never catch the glide and as you set the altitude to 0, then the AP would remain in VOR/LOC and VNAV PTH and would never transition to G/S.

 

You will usually want to be established on the localizer below the glideslope. The choice between VOR/LOC first then APP or directly APP for me is quite simple.

If you have only the signal of the localizer and not yet the glideslope indicator, then you intercept with VOR/LOC only then once you receive the G/S, you press APP if you are under the glide.

If you receive both signals and you are under the glide, then you can press directly APP.

If you are above the glide when intercepting the localizer, then you are not in a very good situation, and you may anticipate a missed approach as it may not be possible to slow down and descent fast enough with the NGX to be stable in landing config soon enough...

however you may still try to catch the G/S using another mode like V/S but in this case you would not set you altitude to zero or you may end up with a crash on the ground.

 

 

Yes, thanks for pointing out that typo. Obviously you can't catch the glide slope above it. Still doesn't explain the single channel issue though.

 

You can catch the G/S from above or below and you don't have to wait to arm APP.

 

You can use whatever mode you want to get to the G/S, just make sure you have something to catch you, like the next stepdown, in the MCP.

 

RW, you only need to have the FREQs and CRSs set, arm the APP mode and then arm the second A/P.

 

Don't wait to 1500', don't worry about bleeds or the reading light in 15D.

 

Everything else is something wrong with your sim/computer.

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