pracines

Aimee and Cryss I hope your're watching

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I hope DTG learned a harsh lesson concerning Flight School. A harsh lesson learned should lead to better results the next time, its up to DTG.

Incomplete, simple, easy, unsophisticated, "for beginner", etc.. flight simulators do not and will not succeed. (I'm blue in the face! lol) 

No matter what promise they hold, no matter how nice they look in VR, no matter how inexpensive they are, no matter how much "gamers" and/or "marketers/CEO's/corporate" (who know nothing about flight simulation!!) call for them.

The dead stats on Ready for Takeoff: (even if it were free it would still not fare much better and it would still fade fast)

https://steamdb.info/app/500170/graphs/

The horrible stats on AeroFly2: (they over priced themselves out of contention and tried to rectify this with a free add-on; the State of Utah- charging full price with "the promise" of features to come is proving to be a miscalculation)

https://steamdb.info/app/434030/graphs/

The better but not great stats for XP11: (I realize not everybody bought XP11 from steam- but if it were a masterpiece it would be doing better than FSX by now - but it will never will do better than FSX- it still lacks way too much, maybe XP12)

https://steamdb.info/app/269950/graphs/

And look how the more complete yet much older sim fares, FSX: (still not satisfactory in my view)

https://steamdb.info/app/314160/graphs/

 

Now, if DTG Flight ??? intends to possibly go head to head with Lockheed Martin ?.?,  DTG is going to have to deliver an absolute masterpiece. If there is even a hint of Flight Schools' flaws (ATC/rendering/general lack of so much etc..), (ancient code/airports/planes etc..) brought over from FSX, then DTG Flight ??? will be classified with the above failures, very quickly. Yes P3D ?.? will be held to the same standard, but they have not been trying to appeal to gamers/newcomers like DTG has been.

We welcome gamers and newcomers gladly; some of us are gamers too. But do not sacrifice realism in a flight sim to appeal to gamers or newcomers, if they come to our realm, they have to want to come because of how real our flight sim is, not because its easy/simple. The UI can be easy to navigate/figure out, but starting a plane should not be easy (press the "I" key - rolling my eyes big time!). The latest great games are not easy/simple for us flight simmers to succeed at, why should our flight sims have to be easy for them? The "us and them" is for demonstration of the facts, not to claim a divide or to promote division, but this is what has been going on for over a decade. Its not right, and we flight simmers have never/will never let it succeed.  

Pay attention to what is right, set by the stats above which determine success or failure....these do not lie and they are so easy to understand. There is a right and wrong here.

DTG will not get another chance at this, so my advice is: make sure its very realistic or don't even bother going to FlightSimCon 2017 it will be a waste of time and money. Create a masterpiece, and the flight sim community will bless you beyond words. Most of us cannot wait to support a new & excellent & realistic flight sim. There will be a winner, because add-ons are getting more and more realistic, and in turn too expensive to practically justify the support of 2 or 3 major flight sims. Between DTG and LM, flight simmers will determine the winner pretty fast. Some think that XP11 is in the race, but again it still needs a lot of features to be able to truly compete. I know there are some that disagree but facts ( ATC, AI, Seasons, etc..) are facts. If DTG fails, P3D ?.? wins easy.

Coming down to the wire and I hope you're ready for reality.

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LOL! The old, evergreen attitude that if you can start the engine with a single keypress, it's not a "serious" flight simulator... Ridiculous...

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What really matters is whether DTG can get developers on board. All these sims are rubbish until you get third party addons and for some of us, the SDK is a large part of the hobby. At least DTG has done some outreach over at fsdeveloper (unlike the other sim developers). If they make it easy to port existing FSX products it will help developers get addons out quickly.

I don't see the purpose of putting unrealistic expectations on what DTG delivers day one. What matters to me is the potential of the platform, not what eye candy or features it has in its initial release. LM's been at this for 8 years, is it realistic that DTG has to blow past them on with their first release or it's a total failure? Besides P3D is a $200 product, not sold on Steam and not for entertainment. By all means buy P3D if you must have the best of the best and you've got truckloads of money to burn on a sim, but I don't think that's DTG's target market, why characterize this as a DTG vs P3D thing? As far as competition goes, XP11 is more of a direct competitor, and with PMDG bringing their aircraft to X-Plane that's going to be a big draw.

Anyway I will not be surprised at all if it turns out DTG's sim is a flop but I'll consider it on its own merits when and if it ever arrives.

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Sir, your passion is commendable.

I'm guessing and this guess is based on nothing at all beyond my gut, is they understand this. How to creating something new that has to beat established products with vast features and an equally vast set of add ons? Impossible perhaps.

It takes years of iteration to get a product as sophisticated as P3D or DCS. These products didn't start out great, far from it. But willingness to keep at it and find a means of keeping the doors open is no small feat.

Now P3D has LM with pockets so deep that spending a few millions a year is nothing. Probably less than LM spends on coffee and donuts. DCS/Eagle Dynamics, to me, is astonishing; how they can continue year after year while giving away the simulator for free with only add ons supplying revenue. Magic.

I don't envy these guys. I suspect that may explain the lack of news. They don't know themselves how to pull this off. I wish them luck and hope they find some level of understanding from the community. They have to walk a very narrow path between expectations and reality.

I like their products. I like competition in the marketplace. I hope they create something new and wonderful.

I and we could go on and on about this subject. That's why we're here: we love flight simming. X-plane is another subject in itself; I think they've made vast progress, but again, look how long they've been at it.

Edited by RichieFly
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I'm 55 years old. I've been simming for almost 3 decades.  Aircraft have fascinated me since I was a child, and a flight sim helps enliven that fascination. Sometimes, when I have the time, I'm a big "play by the book" kind of guy, flipping the switches, turning the knobs; but most of the time I'm a ctrl-E kind of guy, because it is a game and either way, I am just pushing code. 

I'm not sure who "we" are, but I suspect we're a lot more varied in our flight simming tastes and habits than these boards sometimes recognize. IMHO, X-plane's long struggle to make substantial inroads into the casual flight sim market is precisely because they fail to recognize precisely this catholicity. I think that's the grail that DTG is trying to recover, the one Microsoft stumbled on years ago when the only real goal was to produce a computer game that simply simulated flight.  I don't need to fly by the book, I just want to fly.

 

 

 

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What I have seen from Dovetail, may it be Train Sim or Flight School clearly shows me that they don't get it for this genre.

Train Sim probably was/is a commercial success, but it is not nearly as complex as flight sim and has a different target audience.

They are around to make 'a quick British Pound', total lack of detail and passion for their work. But then I am not a gamer...

They either hired some very creative, passionate people since flight school or they are dead in the water with their flight sim project. That they create a masterpiece is doubtful, but maybe, just maybe they will surprise us.

Just my 2 cents.

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Too bad we dont have the numbers for P3D so that we could see that they are probably far behind FSX:SE (which do not include FSX users).

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Sagoland, there are usage polls. Yes, they are limited to forum users which may be not representative for the full user base, they may be biased by the forums they are made in etc. However, according all more recent polls I know Prepar3d ist among the leading simulators used if not the leading one at all and certainly not "far beyond" FSX:SE. The most recent poll I know and still ongoing is here:

https://flusiboard.de/community/thread/1456-umfrage-zur-flugsimulatornutzung/

Given the small sample this is certainly not representative but the tendency agrees with other recent polls (e.g. Aerosoft half a year ago).

Otherwise, Paul's opinion is certainly his own one, but I for one do completely agree.

Kind regards, Michael

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@pmb

You Believe P3D has over 800k users and over 3000 on average flying? Ok, but I dont. My guess is that almost all P3D users are Active in the forums, how many thousand are that? DTG should look at what made FSX so strong. A good sim aimed at everyone who likes to fly a plane.

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5 minutes ago, Sagoland said:

@pmb

You Believe P3D has over 800k users and over 3000 on average flying? Ok, but I dont. My guess is that almost all P3D users are Active in the forums, how many thousand are that? DTG should look at what made FSX so strong. A good sim aimed at everyone who likes to fly a plane.

No, I don't. I just said it's not far beyond FSX:SE. Which I am sure does apply.

Kind regards, Michael

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@pracines Thank you for the callout. If we had realized you were able to speak for our entire customer base, we would have come to you sooner! :biggrin: 

All joking aside, we did find out there was an appetite for an entry level flight sim. Additionally, we are finding out more and more about the wide spectrum of how people play via FSX: Steam Edition. There is no one size fits all solution, which is why the sandbox element of FSX worked so well. This is definitely something we recognize and are incorporating into future plans.

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10 minutes ago, DTG_Aimee said:

@pracines Thank you for the callout. If we had realized you were able to speak for our entire customer base, we would have come to you sooner! :biggrin: 

All joking aside, we did find out there was an appetite for an entry level flight sim. Additionally, we are finding out more and more about the wide spectrum of how people play via FSX: Steam Edition. There is no one size fits all solution, which is why the sandbox element of FSX worked so well. This is definitely something we recognize and are incorporating into future plans.

Aimee, how future are those plans? weeks? months? years? I mean, can we expect some news soon or DTG FS is a vaporware?

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Just now, albx said:

Aimee, ho future are those plans? weeks? months? years?

As long as it takes to do it right :happy: With the help of the community and of course add-on developers I am confident in our plans. Like anything worth having, it takes time, and we are playing the long game. 

 

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28 minutes ago, albx said:

Aimee, how future are those plans? weeks? months? years? I mean, can we expect some news soon or DTG FS is a vaporware?

Whilst I was told to simply watch, thought I could chip in with a little something for @albx.

On 4/7/2017 at 6:08 PM, DTG_Cryss said:

We will have more announcements about our upcoming sim in the following weeks as well as something special for existing Flight School owners to thank you for your continuous support and feedback 

-Cryss + the Dovetail Games Flight Team

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1 hour ago, DTG_Cryss said:

Whilst I was told to simply watch, thought I could chip in with a little something for @albx.

Can we expect some news in the next 60 days?

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8 minutes ago, fsxkitty said:

Can we expect some news in the next 60 days?

I'm loathe to start specifying dates as that has gotten us in trouble before, but I hope so!

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1 minute ago, DTG_Aimee said:

I'm loathe to start specifying dates as that has gotten us in trouble before!

That's understandable.

On a completely different note, did you do some of the voice-overs on Flight School, Aimee? I thought the voice of one of the air traffic controllers in the lessons sounded like you.

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14 minutes ago, fsxkitty said:

That's understandable.

On a completely different note, did you do some of the voice-overs on Flight School, Aimee? I thought the voice of one of the air traffic controllers in the lessons sounded like you.

I sure did! :biggrin:

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2 hours ago, DTG_Aimee said:

@pracines Thank you for the callout. If we had realized you were able to speak for our entire customer base, we would have come to you sooner! :biggrin: 

All joking aside, we did find out there was an appetite for an entry level flight sim. Additionally, we are finding out more and more about the wide spectrum of how people play via FSX: Steam Edition. There is no one size fits all solution, which is why the sandbox element of FSX worked so well. This is definitely something we recognize and are incorporating into future plans.

I went to DTG years ago with a warning about how Microsoft messed up trying to make flight sim a game for beginners. DTG laughed at me then, but now who is laughing. I do not enjoy laughing at DTG, I would have preferred DTG to succeed. This is why I wrote this post, with facts and proof. If you do not want me to care about the success of DTG flight ??? that is your choice.  

Actually the joke is on DTG, or is Flight School not dead. DTG listened to the fake appetites for an entry level sim, and where are all them appetites? They vomited Flight School off their HD's.

The one size that fits all and the main thing DTG needs to recognize is called realism. The sandbox element is in Flight School, Aerofly2, and Ready for Takeoff as well, what is so difficult to understand here? The sandbox thing is what FS1 was and it has had sandbox ever since, FSX was not the pioneer of sandbox in a flight sim. New versions came out with greater realism, and that is what brought home based flight sims to success. The proof is in the failure of MS Flight (sandbox too). So easy to see, why would DTG deliberately blind themselves? Sandbox is required by flight simmers, but it is not the key element because its like so 2nd nature, its always been there.

So sandbox is currently not or is limited in the new flight sim? "future plans", sounds familiar and costly to flight simmers just to get the basics; no wonder I mentioned AeroFly2 and its future promises that do not matter to the flight sim community.

...hum I sense another failed attempt, oh well I tried.    

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@pracines

When Microsoft developed Flight Simulator, they didn't just make it for a select few. They took everyone into account, regardless of skill level. That is the path we intend to take as well. Flight School got people who never would have tried a flight sim into the cockpit, therefore it achieved its goal. If if had been a failure, we wouldn't be integrating the content from it into our new simulator. 

Also, I'm not sure where you get "costly" from "future plans". That sounds like a massive assumption to me. 

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2 hours ago, DTG_Aimee said:

@pracines

When Microsoft developed Flight Simulator, they didn't just make it for a select few. They took everyone into account, regardless of skill level. That is the path we intend to take as well. Flight School got people who never would have tried a flight sim into the cockpit, therefore it achieved its goal. If if had been a failure, we wouldn't be integrating the content from it into our new simulator. 

Also, I'm not sure where you get "costly" from "future plans". That sounds like a massive assumption to me. 

I agree it should be simple job making a flight simulator it only took Microsoft 20 years to get to FSX with a dedicated team of developers backed buy one of the richest companies in the world.

 

Ray Fry.  

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I'm just going to toss this out here, as a reminder that there actually is a "casual "market out there.

I think most people would consider X-Plane a serious flight sim, aimed at the hardcore user. Or rather, it's something like a personal flight sim developed by an aviation geek CEO who flies in real life, and drives development based on what he's interested in, which puts a fairly "hardcore" tilt on things.

Regardless of that orientation, Laminar has been compiling user data for years through internal data links to the program. Look at these statistics for X-Plane 10 reported in January of this year (version 11 was still in beta, so I'm not including that data):

Primary Flight Controls Type:

Yoke - 25%
Joystick - 23%
Unknown - 18%
Mouse - 31%
Gamepad - 3%

So 31% of X-Plane users are flying with a mouse! Think about that. I suspect most of those users are people who buy the program and don't stick with it for long, but a sale is a sale.

Here's another statistic -- 38% of all flights in XP10 were being flown with the default aircraft provided in the sim, not add-ons!

That's astounding, considering that the default XP10 aircraft weren't that great (XP11 raised the bar considerably with the new default fleet). I don't know if similar statistics are available for FSX through internal reporting, but DTG may have access to that via the Steam version. It wouldn't surprise me if the statistcs for all FSX users -- not just the Avsim community -- were in the same ballpark.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that DTG should make a casual or beginner-oriented flight sim. Like probably everyone else on Avsim, I'm hoping that whatever they're doing lives up to the "next generation flight sim" phrase they used in earlier promotions. But it might make commercial sense to start small, with a sim that looks fairly basic on the surface, with a limited hanger of planes to fly, but with the deep foundation to grow into something larger for the hardcore community. I'm keeping my expectations tamped down to something along those lines.

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2 hours ago, DTG_Aimee said:

@pracines

When Microsoft developed Flight Simulator, they didn't just make it for a select few. They took everyone into account, regardless of skill level. That is the path we intend to take as well. Flight School got people who never would have tried a flight sim into the cockpit, therefore it achieved its goal. If if had been a failure, we wouldn't be integrating the content from it into our new simulator. 

Also, I'm not sure where you get "costly" from "future plans". That sounds like a massive assumption to me. 

Aimee, you and others missed it once again. You are generalizing "flight simulator", the point of my post is to specify success/failure over various versions. Yes FSX was a success, but MS Flight was not a success.

You can hide under the " Flight School did what we set it out to do" blanket all you want. If it were so successful, are you saying that there will never be the possibility of a next generation of flight simmers out there? What about the people being born today, they will not have Flight School to try flight simming out with will they??? You see how, DTG canceling the project, that is an admission that it was NOT a success, unless DTG makes the assumption that nobody will ever want to try flight simming again. Where is Flight School for the next generations of flight simmers since it was so effective? 

You cannot get the "costly" from "future plans" point that I make because its part of a plan that you've been indoctrinated with; make a base product as basic as it can be, then charge a moderate price for every little thing. The problem with this plan is that FSX had much more than your flight sim will, MS Train sim 2 was going to have the whole world, but some marketing professor(s) came up with the plan DTG intends on. TSW is another example, 1 basic foundation and now we'll see how many routes get provided for the same or possibly more money. So what used to be a good value back when the whole world was provided, has turned into only Hawaii or Just 1 route or Just 2 planes. You can think that this plan of DTG's will be effective or even work, but it will have to compete with history and fairness.  I have no objection to add-ons, but to deliberately require add-ons just to be able to have the basics of what we have had for decades is where objection becomes a very powerful tool to shut companies down easy- just ask ACES.

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17 hours ago, pracines said:

I hope DTG learned a harsh lesson....

Don't even know where to start with this one, but saying you hope their efforts with Flight School were a flop which taught them a harsh lesson, was certainly not a good place to start your own comments if you are trying to appear constructive, because it reads more like a list of personal ransom demands than constructive criticism, and demonstrates that you missed the point of Flight School, which was a similar point to why PMDG had a stab at their DC-6, I.e. to test the 64 bit waters. You will never hear DTG say it, but Flight School was a demo, which is why it was inexpensive and limited in scenery, and that should be obvious to everyone who didn't 'get that' now, since DTG are offering a special bonus to anyone who purchased Flight School who then also buys their new flight sim.

Anyone who says they were disappointed with Flight School must be so mind numbingly unaware of what it's purpose was to almost beggar belief. Especially when one considers that the most popular flight sim platform right now, is DTG's FSX-SE. So they will be well aware that all they have to do is make a 64 bit version of that, and they've cracked it; they can leave all the fancy weather, planes and ATC and flight planning utilities to others and sit back to enjoy the licensing royalties.

So I dunno how people are saying they aren't up to it. Nobody could screw that up.

And people can bang on about P3D going 64 bit as much as they like, but everyone knows most people on Avsim who are using it now, are doing so in breach of the EULA and will still be doing so regardless of its bit depth.

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39 minutes ago, pracines said:

You can hide under the " Flight School did what we set it out to do" blanket all you want. If it were so successful, are you saying that there will never be the possibility of a next generation of flight simmers out there? What about the people being born today, they will not have Flight School to try flight simming out with will they??? You see how, DTG canceling the project, that is an admission that it was NOT a success, unless DTG makes the assumption that nobody will ever want to try flight simming again. Where is Flight School for the next generations of flight simmers since it was so effective? 

You may be missing a possible motive for the cancellation of Flight School.

DTG made an investment in the mission designs and progression of flight certificates for Flight School. With all that work already done, it would make perfect sense to roll that into the new DTG Flight Sim as an added feature. And if they're doing that, then they wouldn't want one of their own products competing directly with the new sim. 

Just a wild guess here, but that's all we can do until we know more. Over 1,000 posts in this forum and zero hard information about what we're talking about. I'll bet DTG wished they had waited a while to open these forums. :dry:

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