pracines

Aimee and Cryss I hope your're watching

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I hope DTG learned a harsh lesson concerning Flight School. A harsh lesson learned should lead to better results the next time, its up to DTG.

Incomplete, simple, easy, unsophisticated, "for beginner", etc.. flight simulators do not and will not succeed. (I'm blue in the face! lol) 

No matter what promise they hold, no matter how nice they look in VR, no matter how inexpensive they are, no matter how much "gamers" and/or "marketers/CEO's/corporate" (who know nothing about flight simulation!!) call for them.

The dead stats on Ready for Takeoff: (even if it were free it would still not fare much better and it would still fade fast)

https://steamdb.info/app/500170/graphs/

The horrible stats on AeroFly2: (they over priced themselves out of contention and tried to rectify this with a free add-on; the State of Utah- charging full price with "the promise" of features to come is proving to be a miscalculation)

https://steamdb.info/app/434030/graphs/

The better but not great stats for XP11: (I realize not everybody bought XP11 from steam- but if it were a masterpiece it would be doing better than FSX by now - but it will never will do better than FSX- it still lacks way too much, maybe XP12)

https://steamdb.info/app/269950/graphs/

And look how the more complete yet much older sim fares, FSX: (still not satisfactory in my view)

https://steamdb.info/app/314160/graphs/

 

Now, if DTG Flight ??? intends to possibly go head to head with Lockheed Martin ?.?,  DTG is going to have to deliver an absolute masterpiece. If there is even a hint of Flight Schools' flaws (ATC/rendering/general lack of so much etc..), (ancient code/airports/planes etc..) brought over from FSX, then DTG Flight ??? will be classified with the above failures, very quickly. Yes P3D ?.? will be held to the same standard, but they have not been trying to appeal to gamers/newcomers like DTG has been.

We welcome gamers and newcomers gladly; some of us are gamers too. But do not sacrifice realism in a flight sim to appeal to gamers or newcomers, if they come to our realm, they have to want to come because of how real our flight sim is, not because its easy/simple. The UI can be easy to navigate/figure out, but starting a plane should not be easy (press the "I" key - rolling my eyes big time!). The latest great games are not easy/simple for us flight simmers to succeed at, why should our flight sims have to be easy for them? The "us and them" is for demonstration of the facts, not to claim a divide or to promote division, but this is what has been going on for over a decade. Its not right, and we flight simmers have never/will never let it succeed.  

Pay attention to what is right, set by the stats above which determine success or failure....these do not lie and they are so easy to understand. There is a right and wrong here.

DTG will not get another chance at this, so my advice is: make sure its very realistic or don't even bother going to FlightSimCon 2017 it will be a waste of time and money. Create a masterpiece, and the flight sim community will bless you beyond words. Most of us cannot wait to support a new & excellent & realistic flight sim. There will be a winner, because add-ons are getting more and more realistic, and in turn too expensive to practically justify the support of 2 or 3 major flight sims. Between DTG and LM, flight simmers will determine the winner pretty fast. Some think that XP11 is in the race, but again it still needs a lot of features to be able to truly compete. I know there are some that disagree but facts ( ATC, AI, Seasons, etc..) are facts. If DTG fails, P3D ?.? wins easy.

Coming down to the wire and I hope you're ready for reality.

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LOL! The old, evergreen attitude that if you can start the engine with a single keypress, it's not a "serious" flight simulator... Ridiculous...

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What really matters is whether DTG can get developers on board. All these sims are rubbish until you get third party addons and for some of us, the SDK is a large part of the hobby. At least DTG has done some outreach over at fsdeveloper (unlike the other sim developers). If they make it easy to port existing FSX products it will help developers get addons out quickly.

I don't see the purpose of putting unrealistic expectations on what DTG delivers day one. What matters to me is the potential of the platform, not what eye candy or features it has in its initial release. LM's been at this for 8 years, is it realistic that DTG has to blow past them on with their first release or it's a total failure? Besides P3D is a $200 product, not sold on Steam and not for entertainment. By all means buy P3D if you must have the best of the best and you've got truckloads of money to burn on a sim, but I don't think that's DTG's target market, why characterize this as a DTG vs P3D thing? As far as competition goes, XP11 is more of a direct competitor, and with PMDG bringing their aircraft to X-Plane that's going to be a big draw.

Anyway I will not be surprised at all if it turns out DTG's sim is a flop but I'll consider it on its own merits when and if it ever arrives.

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Sir, your passion is commendable.

I'm guessing and this guess is based on nothing at all beyond my gut, is they understand this. How to creating something new that has to beat established products with vast features and an equally vast set of add ons? Impossible perhaps.

It takes years of iteration to get a product as sophisticated as P3D or DCS. These products didn't start out great, far from it. But willingness to keep at it and find a means of keeping the doors open is no small feat.

Now P3D has LM with pockets so deep that spending a few millions a year is nothing. Probably less than LM spends on coffee and donuts. DCS/Eagle Dynamics, to me, is astonishing; how they can continue year after year while giving away the simulator for free with only add ons supplying revenue. Magic.

I don't envy these guys. I suspect that may explain the lack of news. They don't know themselves how to pull this off. I wish them luck and hope they find some level of understanding from the community. They have to walk a very narrow path between expectations and reality.

I like their products. I like competition in the marketplace. I hope they create something new and wonderful.

I and we could go on and on about this subject. That's why we're here: we love flight simming. X-plane is another subject in itself; I think they've made vast progress, but again, look how long they've been at it.

Edited by RichieFly
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I'm 55 years old. I've been simming for almost 3 decades.  Aircraft have fascinated me since I was a child, and a flight sim helps enliven that fascination. Sometimes, when I have the time, I'm a big "play by the book" kind of guy, flipping the switches, turning the knobs; but most of the time I'm a ctrl-E kind of guy, because it is a game and either way, I am just pushing code. 

I'm not sure who "we" are, but I suspect we're a lot more varied in our flight simming tastes and habits than these boards sometimes recognize. IMHO, X-plane's long struggle to make substantial inroads into the casual flight sim market is precisely because they fail to recognize precisely this catholicity. I think that's the grail that DTG is trying to recover, the one Microsoft stumbled on years ago when the only real goal was to produce a computer game that simply simulated flight.  I don't need to fly by the book, I just want to fly.

 

 

 

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What I have seen from Dovetail, may it be Train Sim or Flight School clearly shows me that they don't get it for this genre.

Train Sim probably was/is a commercial success, but it is not nearly as complex as flight sim and has a different target audience.

They are around to make 'a quick British Pound', total lack of detail and passion for their work. But then I am not a gamer...

They either hired some very creative, passionate people since flight school or they are dead in the water with their flight sim project. That they create a masterpiece is doubtful, but maybe, just maybe they will surprise us.

Just my 2 cents.

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Too bad we dont have the numbers for P3D so that we could see that they are probably far behind FSX:SE (which do not include FSX users).

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Sagoland, there are usage polls. Yes, they are limited to forum users which may be not representative for the full user base, they may be biased by the forums they are made in etc. However, according all more recent polls I know Prepar3d ist among the leading simulators used if not the leading one at all and certainly not "far beyond" FSX:SE. The most recent poll I know and still ongoing is here:

https://flusiboard.de/community/thread/1456-umfrage-zur-flugsimulatornutzung/

Given the small sample this is certainly not representative but the tendency agrees with other recent polls (e.g. Aerosoft half a year ago).

Otherwise, Paul's opinion is certainly his own one, but I for one do completely agree.

Kind regards, Michael

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@pmb

You Believe P3D has over 800k users and over 3000 on average flying? Ok, but I dont. My guess is that almost all P3D users are Active in the forums, how many thousand are that? DTG should look at what made FSX so strong. A good sim aimed at everyone who likes to fly a plane.

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5 minutes ago, Sagoland said:

@pmb

You Believe P3D has over 800k users and over 3000 on average flying? Ok, but I dont. My guess is that almost all P3D users are Active in the forums, how many thousand are that? DTG should look at what made FSX so strong. A good sim aimed at everyone who likes to fly a plane.

No, I don't. I just said it's not far beyond FSX:SE. Which I am sure does apply.

Kind regards, Michael

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@pracines Thank you for the callout. If we had realized you were able to speak for our entire customer base, we would have come to you sooner! :biggrin: 

All joking aside, we did find out there was an appetite for an entry level flight sim. Additionally, we are finding out more and more about the wide spectrum of how people play via FSX: Steam Edition. There is no one size fits all solution, which is why the sandbox element of FSX worked so well. This is definitely something we recognize and are incorporating into future plans.

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10 minutes ago, DTG_Aimee said:

@pracines Thank you for the callout. If we had realized you were able to speak for our entire customer base, we would have come to you sooner! :biggrin: 

All joking aside, we did find out there was an appetite for an entry level flight sim. Additionally, we are finding out more and more about the wide spectrum of how people play via FSX: Steam Edition. There is no one size fits all solution, which is why the sandbox element of FSX worked so well. This is definitely something we recognize and are incorporating into future plans.

Aimee, how future are those plans? weeks? months? years? I mean, can we expect some news soon or DTG FS is a vaporware?

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Just now, albx said:

Aimee, ho future are those plans? weeks? months? years?

As long as it takes to do it right :happy: With the help of the community and of course add-on developers I am confident in our plans. Like anything worth having, it takes time, and we are playing the long game. 

 

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28 minutes ago, albx said:

Aimee, how future are those plans? weeks? months? years? I mean, can we expect some news soon or DTG FS is a vaporware?

Whilst I was told to simply watch, thought I could chip in with a little something for @albx.

On 4/7/2017 at 6:08 PM, DTG_Cryss said:

We will have more announcements about our upcoming sim in the following weeks as well as something special for existing Flight School owners to thank you for your continuous support and feedback 

-Cryss + the Dovetail Games Flight Team

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1 hour ago, DTG_Cryss said:

Whilst I was told to simply watch, thought I could chip in with a little something for @albx.

Can we expect some news in the next 60 days?

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