Mitch24

Split Scimitars for the NGX

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Hello, I do not yet own the PMDG NGX, but I am hoping to get it in the near future.

Does the NGX currently have split scimitars like in the real world? The pics on the website I don't see them. If not can we add them please, it's very unrealistic. 

Thank you!

-Mitch Young

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The NGX does not have scimitars currently. And it's not know if they are planned or not.

Also I don't see how it's unrealistic to not have them. The majority of NG's don't have them even if they are being rolled out in huge numbers.

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5 minutes ago, F16_Driver said:

Also I don't see how it's unrealistic to not have them. The majority of NG's don't have them even if they are being rolled out in huge numbers.

Maybe outside of the U.S, however I just flew through Denver and literally all of United's 737's have them. 

-Mitch Young

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The vast majority is still non Scimitars, even in USA. I hope we get them, but PMDG hasn't announced anything.

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5 minutes ago, F16_Driver said:

The vast majority is still non Scimitars, even in USA. 

OK, I must be hallucinating then...

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A relative small sample at Denver doesn't cover the whole 737 fleet in the USA, not even United's.

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8 minutes ago, F16_Driver said:

A relative small sample at Denver doesn't cover the whole 737 fleet in the USA, not even United's.

Agreed.  Pass through an American hub and then tell me it's unrealistic.

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The answer to "does currently have," is no.  Don't count on this being added as a cosmetic addon either.  In fact, since it is not a Boeing modification I'm not sure PMDG even has access to the data necessary to model the modification. So the answer to the next question is probably not.

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2 minutes ago, F16_Driver said:

A relative small sample at Denver doesn't cover the whole 737 fleet in the USA, not even United's.

I have been to Houston on business several times over the past three months, and stay at a hotel just south of the main entrance to IAH. The hotel is located right under the departure path of the two 15 runways. The 15's are the primary runways used for departures most of the time.

IAH is a major United hub, and I have watched dozens and dozens of their 737s on takeoff from my hotel. I don't recall seeing any that were NOT equipped with the split scimitar winglets. It appears to be fleet-wide for United.

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20 minutes ago, F16_Driver said:

A relative small sample at Denver doesn't cover the whole 737 fleet in the USA, not even United's.

I also see them with Delta's 737's too...

 

Mitch Young

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It's a good point that they are not on every 737, but they are def on a lot of them.

I wonder if it's something that would be made livery specific? Like with United?

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8 minutes ago, Mitch24 said:

I also see them with Delta's 737's too...

 

Mitch Young

The split scimitars would be nice as a visual cosmetic enhancement to the NGX line, since they are becoming widely adopted by at least some operators, but as others have pointed out, unless PMDG could obtain actual data on their aerodynamic effects, they would probably not change the character of the flight model in the sim.

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As has been pointed out, it would require changes to the flight modeling, although the FMC does not differ on SSW-equipped aeroplanes, so that would remain unchanged. Nevertheless, APB Split Scimitar winglets add 294lbs to the weight of the aeroplane, which requires the wings and stringers to be strengthened (models fitted with the previous winglet types already have the necessary reinforcement). Ballast weight has to be added too, so the weight increase is more than that 294lbs of the winglets alone.

SSW's increase the 737's range by approximately 65 miles, which means they reduce fuel consumption by around two-three percent, but the savings of this nature tend to be at the higher end of these figures only on longer flights. But, it is a significant saving, when one considers how much it costs to fill up a 737 with fuel, however, it is not a saving which an airline would see right away, since even if the 737 which has SSWs added had the original winglets, thus making the conversion a bit cheaper since those aircraft already have the necessary strengthened stringers, with only the trailing edge wedge needing to be added, those new SSWs cost about 600,000 Dollars a set. This means you'd have to be planning on keeping your modified 737 for a while in order to reap the cost savings benefit, although since they also add value to the aircraft, it would also increase the sale value of the aeroplane when you did eventually sell it.

The addition of winglets does a few other things to an aeroplane too: It reduces the stall speed, reduces the required runway length for take offs and landings, improves the rate of climb, improves hot and high performance a little bit, increases the payload the aeroplane can carry and makes the aircraft a little bit more stable at high altitude. Most of these changes are not massive (typically they'd be about a 2-3 percent difference), but overall they would mean anyone simulating the aeroplane with those SSWswould have to consider the way they alter the performance of the 737 if they wanted their simulation of it to be accurate, and since the PMDG 737 is currently within about 5 percent of the real aeroplane's book figures, adding the winglets visually but not making any changes to the flight model would mean it would probably be no longer within that five percent margin of accuracy.

Another benefit which is not to be sniffed at, is that the new SSWs increase a passenger's perception of the aircraft being modern, thus even people who don't know what those winglets do still have a significant visual pointer to the fact that the aeroplane they are travelling on is one which is new and cool etc.

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Thanks for your explanation, Chock. I would just like to see them for the visual aspect, I don't really care much about if they actually affect the PMDG flying at all..

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33 minutes ago, Mitch24 said:

Thanks for your explanation, Chock. I would just like to see them for the visual aspect, I don't really care much about if they actually affect the PMDG flying at all..

 

Therein lies the rabbit. Many of simmers are in that boat. There is also that other group that couldn't care less about eye candy, and care more about realism, and accurate modeling. I for one am in the "wireframe is good enough" category, as long as systems, and behavior is modeled as accurately as possible, within the limits of the simulated environment.

 

There are many sim products there that tend to the eye candy customers, but I want to believe, PMDG is in the precision business... :-)

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1 hour ago, Mitch24 said:

Thanks for your explanation, Chock. I would just like to see them for the visual aspect, I don't really care much about if they actually affect the PMDG flying at all..

Unfortunately, the developers probably do; accuracy is essentially PMDG's USP, hardly a surprise when the company even has the word precision in its name, so it'd be my guess that they'd probably be disinclined to make an SSW variant without having it reflect the differing performance of the thing. I wouldn't be surprised to see them upating the P3D V4 NG at some point down the line with such a feature.

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22 hours ago, Chock said:

Unfortunately, the developers probably do; accuracy is essentially PMDG's USP, hardly a surprise when the company even has the word precision in its name, so it'd be my guess that they'd probably be disinclined to make an SSW variant without having it reflect the differing performance of the thing. I wouldn't be surprised to see them upating the P3D V4 NG at some point down the line with such a feature.

I agree completely. If we are going to have scimitars in FSX/P3D it should reflect the performance in a realistic manor. That being said, scimitars would be a cool visual update for one of the best planes made for flight simulation. Goldstar textures photoshopped scimitars on the NGX. It looks pretty awesome. https://m.facebook.com/GoldstarTextures/photos/a.156279657854273.36352.156064191209153/583564371792464/?type=3&source=54

Roger

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On 7/9/2017 at 1:07 PM, Mitch24 said:

Hello, I do not yet own the PMDG NGX, but I am hoping to get it in the near future.

Does the NGX currently have split scimitars like in the real world? The pics on the website I don't see them. If not can we add them please, it's very unrealistic. 

Thank you!

-Mitch Young

Rather have the 900ER first. 

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On ‎09‎.‎07‎.‎2017 at 10:12 PM, Chock said:

Unfortunately, the developers probably do; accuracy is essentially PMDG's USP, hardly a surprise when the company even has the word precision in its name, so it'd be my guess that they'd probably be disinclined to make an SSW variant without having it reflect the differing performance of the thing. I wouldn't be surprised to see them upating the P3D V4 NG at some point down the line with such a feature.

I would agree. BUT they did the whole B747-8 model with the cockpit and the dynamics of the 747-400! This also surprised me, but I think it was a good idea anyway.

I don't know if it would affect the product being officially licensed by Boeing. But I would certainly welcome an ssw update, even if it was visual only.

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40 minutes ago, Mitch24 said:

"The vast majority is still non Scimitars, even in USA"

 

Screen_Shot_2017_07_11_at_4_39_55_PM.png

:dry:

Not to burst your bubble, but in those pictures there are as many non scimitar 737's as there are 737's with them. ;)

The horse is starting to look a little dead. Enjoy what we already have, or is about to get if you are using v4. Hopefully PMDG will deliver so you finally can get a bit of sleep knowing you will save a few percent of virtual fuel.

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23 minutes ago, VitaminA330 said:

BUT they did the whole B747-8 model with the cockpit and the dynamics of the 747-400!

How do you know this??? The 747-8 isn't even out yet. 

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This, sad and repetitive, topic almost makes me want to go back to the good old days of WX radar threads.

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4 minutes ago, F16_Driver said:

The old 747 had a model only expansion of the 747-8.

Ok, he's referring to the old version. Understood.

i believe the v3 expansion will have new modeling from what I've read. 

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