mikeglaz

KORD - KFJK 777 flying west

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I setup my flight path with PFPX, my 777 takes off to the west at O'Hare and keeps flying west.  Does anyone know why the first waypoint says VECTORS?kordkjfk.png

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Hi,

You must know that there is no SID at KORD. During the clearance, you would be assigned a heading after takeoff and a initial altitude, then once taken off you would be radar vectored to a waypoint of your route.

The first "waypoint" called vectors is there to reflect that. The first heading (whether indicated on the charts or by default the runway heading) is coded in the departure you have chosen in the CDU.

So if you have LNAV armed before takeoff, it will kick in at 400ft and maintain that heading permanently if you don't do anything.

In real life, you would switch to HDG SEL when given vectors from the ATC until you eventually get a direct to once of the waypoint of your route where you would return to LNAV.

Actually you may even not arm LNAV at all and select HDG SEL when passing 400ft with the assigned heading in the MCP box.

In the absence of an ATC, you have to self vector to your route.

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2 minutes ago, mikeglaz said:

Is there a reason there are no SIDs at KORD?

Probably because there are so many runways in use and the airspace is so busy that SIDs were probably never flown anyway (ATC directing them away). I believe KLAX is also the same. Easier to traffic manage aircraft who take off and fly runway heading then vectoring them, than aircraft following SIDs and trying to monitor them all.

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ok, so once I vector to the first waypoint, how do I get the autopilot to follow the waypoints?  Turning on the LNAV doesn't seem to work.

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4 minutes ago, mikeglaz said:

ok, so once I vector to the first waypoint, do I get the autopilot to follow the waypoints?  Turning on the LNAV doesn't seem to work.

Use heading select to get to the first waypoint, then LNAV from there. 

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14 minutes ago, mikeglaz said:

ok, so once I vector to the first waypoint, how do I get the autopilot to follow the waypoints?  Turning on the LNAV doesn't seem to work.

Hi,

You need to enter a direct to the waypoint in the CDU. Go to the leg page, click on the LSK next to the waypoint you want to go to bring it to the scratchpad and then click on the LSK1 on the first page of the leg pages (first waypoint displayed on the leg page) to make the direct.

Execute and you will see the magenta track drawn on the ND to that waypoint. You can then engage LNAV.

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Our own Kyle did a video on just this subject (well, SIDs/STARs anyway).

You can find it here: 

https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/266664-vectors-in-fmc-on-approach/?do=findComment&comment=2925691

But in a nutshell as others have mentioned....If "VECTORS" is the 1st item on your route, you have to either manually fly or use the MCP's Heading Select to "point" your plane to your 2nd waypoint on the FMC (actually its your 1st actual waypoint but the "VECTORS" is occupying that LSK 1...the point the FMC is always flying to). Then as you get near to it, click the LSK 2 that displays that waypoint.  

It goes to the "Scratchpad" at the bottom of the CDU display.

Press the LSK 1 button on the CDU.  

Then white light above the EXE button should illuminate. Press the EXE button to tell the FMC you now want to go direct to that waypoint and continue on your inputted route.

Finally hit the LNAV button and the plane will start turning on to the new magenta line you created.

 

Now...like everything about learning how to fly an airliner...there are other things you have to take into consideration when doing the steps I show above.

If, for example, the direction to your 1st waypoint after "Vectors" is way off to your left or right (or behind you)....doing the steps will have the aircraft trying to execute a turn that will be too sharp and you'll wind up "Hunting" for the magenta line.  So what you want to do is get your heading (either by hand flying or using the Heading Select button) as close to going DIRECTLY to that waypoint as possible.  Then when you switch to LNAV it will only make small adjustments to get on the magenta line. :biggrin:

I've thoroughly enjoyed learning how to fly them over the years, using these forums for guidance and I've seldom ever left with only the info I was needed.  Frequently, you tend to also get the answers to the next questions you don't even know you'll need to ask....because we've all been there and remember what the next questions we had were...hehe.

Anyway....good luck and let us know how you're getting on with the experience. :wink:

Edited by Steve Dra
Had to update steps

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14 hours ago, PMDG777 said:

Probably because there are so many runways in use and the airspace is so busy that SIDs were probably never flown anyway (ATC directing them away). I believe KLAX is also the same. Easier to traffic manage aircraft who take off and fly runway heading then vectoring them, than aircraft following SIDs and trying to monitor them all.

KLAX Actually has tons of SIDs and they are normally flown right from takeoff. The only time we frequently depart the SID is flying out to the Hawaiian islands where they will usually clear us direct to the first oceanic fix. 

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3 hours ago, Ralgh said:

KLAX Actually has tons of SIDs and they are normally flown right from takeoff. The only time we frequently depart the SID is flying out to the Hawaiian islands where they will usually clear us direct to the first oceanic fix. 

Oh yeah.  I fly out of KLAX all the time...can do the Dotss1 in my sleep, and the Loop8 is really fun.  And fun to watch off the beach at night....watch them head straight out, then "loop" around...hence the name Loop8 I guess.  (Hehe.....just checked its Loop9 now..and  Dotss1 used to be called Holtz. which is now just a waypoint within the Dotss1 SID).

Anyway...LAX has to be one of the best spotting airports in the world...Always a huge variation in airlines/aircraft.  I live close to KDFW....90% of the planes are AA (not that its a bad thing), gets pretty boring after a while though.

And based on your name, I can imagine you're very well received when you visit my hometown. :biggrin:

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9 hours ago, Ralgh said:

KLAX Actually has tons of SIDs and they are normally flown right from takeoff. The only time we frequently depart the SID is flying out to the Hawaiian islands where they will usually clear us direct to the first oceanic fix. 

Huh I swear last time I flew out of KLAX the first leg was "VECTORS". Maybe it was that particular SID!

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8 hours ago, Steve Dra said:

Oh yeah.  I fly out of KLAX all the time...can do the Dotss1 in my sleep, and the Loop8 is really fun.  And fun to watch off the beach at night....watch them head straight out, then "loop" around...hence the name Loop8 I guess.  (Hehe.....just checked its Loop9 now..and  Dotss1 used to be called Holtz. which is now just a waypoint within the Dotss1 SID).

Anyway...LAX has to be one of the best spotting airports in the world...Always a huge variation in airlines/aircraft.  I live close to KDFW....90% of the planes are AA (not that its a bad thing), gets pretty boring after a while though.

And based on your name, I can imagine you're very well received when you visit my hometown. :biggrin:

I fly for AA so I do end up at DFW and people always ask if that's really my name. No relation to anyone famous though 😀

 

KLAX has a new departure that they use instead of the loop now. It's called the ORCKA1. It has more transitions. 

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2 hours ago, PMDG777 said:

Huh I swear last time I flew out of KLAX the first leg was "VECTORS". Maybe it was that particular SID!

Sometimes rarely they use one of the older SIDs that start with vectors but ever since RNAV SIDs became all the rage they use those most of the time. 

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23 minutes ago, Ralgh said:

Sometimes rarely they use one of the older SIDs that start with vectors but ever since RNAV SIDs became all the rage they use those most of the time. 

Even with the new ORCKA1, there is still a vectored segment and loop to the northeast to the waypoint KLIPR. Many more outbound transition options than the old LOOP9 from KLIPR on, as you mentioned.

The DOTTS1 is fully RNAV.

I just spent 2 weeks in Houston, staying at a hotel on JFK Boulevard just south of the main airport entrance. It's a great location for spotting, as the hotel is right under the departure path for runways 15L and 15R, which are the main runways used for takeoffs probably 90 percent of the time. IAH has multiple RNAV SIDS but they all start out with vectors. 

I saw many simultaneous parallel departures from15L and 15R - one aircraft would be vectored to turn left, and the other to turn right - almost like watching an airshow!

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Wow!  For all the "pilots" here, there sure seems to be a lot of confusion as to what a SID is and how it may be flown.

There are many, MANY SIDs that exist at numerous airports where the first "instruction" in the SID route will be a "Vector".  Normally (but not always) the SID narrative will say something like "fly runway heading (or a given heading), expect vectors to....." (the first actual navigation point in your flight plan).

Saying there is no SID at KORD is just flat out wrong.  KORD DOES have a SID.  Go to AirNav and look at the chart for it.  http://airnav.com/airport/KORD (scroll to bottom of page to find it). It's called the O'Hare Two Departure.  Every runway you can depart from is covered by that one SID, and they are ALL "Vector" departures.  You read the narrative "Departure Route Description" on page 2 to find out what you are supposed to do after takeoff.  THEN, during your clearance, Clearance Delivery may issue something different (as in a different initial heading to fly after takeoff).  But if they don't, you'd better darn well be prepared already to follow ALL the instructions given in the SID itself.

 

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5 minutes ago, FalconAF said:

the O'Hare Two Departure.

Technically I agree with you but this procedure is never given in an ATC clearance.  The essence of the ORD2 is to provide altitude constraints at ORDd5 and d8; otherwise, it is simply "all aircraft expect radar vectors ... expect clearance to request altitude 10 min after departure."  And since all but the heavy B744 clear those altitude obstacles with ease it's hard to think of it as a "procedure."

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I agree.  But "technically it isn't a SID" won't save your a** with the FAA if you DIDN'T follow the instructions in the published procedure and screwed something up bad enough.  It IS a published SID for a reason.  :biggrin:

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7 minutes ago, FalconAF said:

I agree.  But "technically it isn't a SID" won't save your a** with the FAA if you DIDN'T follow the instructions in the published procedure and screwed something up bad enough.  It IS a published SID for a reason.  :biggrin:

If the procedure isn't given in an air traffic control clearance as Dan states (and I have no way of verifying if he's right or not), why would you be following a procedure that you weren't assigned.

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Guys, we can argue semantics all night long.  My initial post was ONLY because someone earlier in the thread said there were NO SIDS for KORD.  That is simply false, and that's ALL I was correcting. 

What seems to be the question is if Clearance Delivery doesn't "include" the SID in your clearance, and only says "...expect vectors....", does that relieve the pilot of STILL complying with the altitude restrictions stated for certain runways in the SID?  I think not. I might be wrong.  I wonder what the FAA would say.  In the absence of Clearance Delivery "giving" me the SID without saying ANYTHING about the altitude restrictions for my runway, I would think I would STILL be expected to follow the SID guidance (in this case) and have to comply with the altitude crossings.  That's the way the Narrative for the SID reads.  Think about it.  There's only ONE SID for the entire airport, and it includes information for ALL runway departures.  SOME of the runways have altitude crossing restrictions after takeoff.  ALL runway departures will be "expect vectors...".  In this case, I'm pretty sure that if Clearance Delivery doesn't actually "give you the named SID" but only says "expect vectors", you still have to abide by the SID altitude restrictions.  The SID HAS TO BE PUBLISHED FOR A REASON, or they wouldn't even have it in the first place.  So, unless the pilot is relieved of ALL altitude restrictions after takeoff when Clearance Delivery does not include the SID in the clearance......

Anybody have a direct line to the FAA Questions and Answers Hotline?  :laugh:

 

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2 hours ago, FalconAF said:

In this case, I'm pretty sure that if Clearance Delivery doesn't actually "give you the named SID" but only says "expect vectors", you still have to abide by the SID altitude restrictions.  The SID HAS TO BE PUBLISHED FOR A REASON, or they wouldn't even have it in the first place.  So, unless the pilot is relieved of ALL altitude restrictions after takeoff when Clearance Delivery does not include the SID in the clearance......

This is what I'm curious to know. But then you can also turn the question around and ask, if air traffic control doesn't give you a SID and the airport has more than one of them, can you just pick one? I wouldn't think so. Of course, I have no real-world experience, so I could be wrong.

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11 minutes ago, Captain Kevin said:

But then you can also turn the question around and ask, if air traffic control doesn't give you a SID and the airport has more than one of them, can you just pick one?

No.

When you're IFR, you only fly what you're cleared to fly. The only time you can "pick" one is when you're filing. If you get it, great. If not, DO NOT deviate from your clearance (subject to AVEF and 91.3).

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