jdwgraf

When a developer uses one of your paints in the product

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Just a question for all painters here .

As the title says , If a developer uses one of your repaints in the product ( DVD , download ) , having asked for permission to do so , would you expect to get paid for it ? Same applies to a mention in the product manual .

 

John Glanville

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Depends on the agreement. I don't expect anything if I agreed to it being used. If I said no don't use it with out what ever for exchange and it was still used.... That's a different story. 

 

If they used it with out any permission and didn't inform you or request it then that's something else. 

 

Additionally if you used a paint kit  where it was given with the purpose of creating liveries for free for that product than you have already given up the right to claim any monetary reimbursements. 

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7 minutes ago, jdwgraf said:

Just a question for all painters here .

As the title says , If a developer uses one of your repaints in the product ( DVD , download ) , having asked for permission to do so , would you expect to get paid for it ? Same applies to a mention in the product manual .

 

John Glanville

I would think the developer would contact you for permission and work out whatever terms were agreeable to both parties before using it. I would think to use it without permission is a violation of copyright laws.  

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In my case I did not expect to be paid as such but I did expect to get a mention in the manual .

 

John

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1 hour ago, jdwgraf said:

In my case I did not expect to be paid as such but I did expect to get a mention in the manual .

 

John

Was it communicated to them ? 

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@warriorpilot

Didin't find out until after product was released , was my first ( and probably last ) . Altering a PDF file is not that much work , I do it myself all the time . Once they had a few thousand DVD's pressed there's not a lot they could have done . I would have thought that naming the author would have been the decent ( normal ) thing to do , more fool me .

 

John

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In most countries, providing it is an original work, copyright is enacted at the point of creation (not all), but if someone does a repaint and puts it out there for free, as would be the case for most repaints, then it subsequently finds its way onto a product, there is no foul since it was likely made available with no caveats regarding distribution, and was made possible by the facility of the paint kit which one did not originate. It'd be polite to give the new repaint creator credit in such a case, but that's about all one could complain about.

Moreover, unless one had permission to use the airline logo and livery used in a repaint, you'd actually be trying to claim copyright and reimbursement from something which wasn't your own copyright either, since you did not originally create the airline's logo and livery. So unless you'd cleared the right to use those elements from either the airline itself, or the originator of the design for that airline, you'd be breaking probably a few IP and copyright laws yourself in seeking payment for a repaint.

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Actually in this case the livery was made with the cooperation of the airline in question as they provide all the neccessary information . Not something that happens very often , I must add .

 

John

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3 hours ago, Chock said:

In most countries, providing it is an original work, copyright is enacted at the point of creation (not all), but if someone does a repaint and puts it out there for free, as would be the case for most repaints, then it subsequently finds its way onto a product, there is no foul since it was likely made available with no caveats regarding distribution, and was made possible by the facility of the paint kit which one did not originate. It'd be polite to give the new repaint creator credit in such a case, but that's about all one could complain about.

Moreover, unless one had permission to use the airline logo and livery used in a repaint, you'd actually be trying to claim copyright and reimbursement from something which wasn't your own copyright either, since you did not originally create the airline's logo and livery. So unless you'd cleared the right to use those elements from either the airline itself, or the originator of the design for that airline, you'd be breaking probably a few IP and copyright laws yourself in seeking payment for a repaint.

How do these repaint companies claim monetary reimbursements then? I.e mchpat?

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27 minutes ago, warriorpilot said:

How do these repaint companies claim monetary reimbursements then? I.e mchpat?

The owner of the material just doesn't care or welcomes the exposure... If they did - they could easily shut them down...

We went through this on Train Sim as well - Union Pacific was notoriously difficult to deal with...

Regards,
Scott

 

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Most repaints at best (and this is a stretch) can only claim derivative copyright https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf  In order to claim derivative copyright you have to have the permission (written) from the original copyright holder. All of those white base and paint kits tie an artists hands to the original author.

Unless you made all of the textures without using any elements from the original product you have a weak case. Even if you made one texture there is the concept of the whole. Since the artwork is worthless without the digital 3D model to display it on it may be considered an element of work. 

I bet McPhat licensed their work with the original developers so they can sell it. 

The Trademark issue may be pursuable if the Trademark owner only gave you permission or limited your use to non-reimbursable. But, that is the Trademark owners rights, not yours. 

After consulting with a couple of developers I found that they tended to stomp all over others copyrights and trademarks with no regard while in the same breath crowing about people who violated their own copyrights. Even if you had legitimate rights I doubt they would care.

Basically, you are most likely up a creek without a paddle. I would not do future repaints of said company's products again.

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28 minutes ago, KenG said:

After consulting with a couple of developers I found that they tended to stomp all over others copyrights and trademarks with no regard while in the same breath crowing about people who violated their own copyrights. Even if you had legitimate rights I doubt they would care.

Basically, you are most likely up a creek without a paddle. I would not do future repaints of said company's products again.

That was my " meh " moment as well , with them going on about how important your paints are to the community and that they " appreciate " the work you've done ( and at the same time helping to sell their product ) but then saying " If you don't like it - leave " . Certainly a learning moment for me , that's for certain . Like I said before , a mention in the manual as being the maker would have been enough but apparently this was too much to ask ( hope ) for .

Now in the process of removing some 230+ paints and uploading elsewhere . I see no need to deny everyone the use of them through their actions . They would have been uploaded here ( in fact some are ) but with the server crashes here on AVSIM I ended up having to upload the same paints here 4 times !!

The copyright issue is another matter with airline logo's , I'm sure that most see it as free advertising along with all the VA's that are around . Do remember Mr Tishma though who had other ideas .

As for the other replies - Thanks all . Next time ( if there is a next time ) I will make sure to get something on paper first .

 

John

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Well , it seems that the developer came up with a solution all by himself , livery will be removed from the next product upgrade . They will however add a disclaimer in the manual that the livery ( now removed ) was created by ... Where's the logic in that ? Guilty conscience maybe ?

 

John

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May have realized that they (the developer) do not have permission from the Trademark owner to distribute or sell. 

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It had NOTHING to do with copyrights at all , as mentioned above , these liveries were made with the FULL cooperation of the airline involved . Something that does not happen very often .

Their " in house " painter also has his version of the same airline in the product , although in his case he had no help from the airline or access to the information we had .

 

John

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On 11-8-2017 at 9:46 AM, jdwgraf said:

@warriorpilot

Didin't find out until after product was released , was my first ( and probably last ) . Altering a PDF file is not that much work , I do it myself all the time . Once they had a few thousand DVD's pressed there's not a lot they could have done . I would have thought that naming the author would have been the decent ( normal ) thing to do , more fool me .

 

John

Not really clear to me is:
Did you contact the vendor after you discovered your livery being used?
I may be mistaken, I get the impression , the vendor informed you about your livery being removed from the next version, because he has seen fuzz about it on a forum (this forum?)

You wrote : Well , it seems that the developer came up with a solution all by himself 

I get the impression you had no private contact with him before complaining here at this AVSIM-forum, in wich case I can imaginge him being irritated and skipping your livery.

I cannot imagine when you would have contacted the vendor privately, saying  "You used a paint I made without mentioning me as the maker of it in the manual. I would appreceate to see my name stated in the manual"
I can imagine his reaction would be way different.

Zoals we in Nederland zeggen "het is de toon die de muziek maakt"    aka     " it is not what you say, it is the way you say it ."

Just my 2 cts

Leen

 

 

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Leen ,

The developer asked for permission to use the livery , I agreed but at that time did not make any demands for any form of payment , nor did I expect any . I was contacted via PM just one time and never had any further exchange of information . Including my name in the manual would have been at least a common courtesy ( in my opinion ) .

I posted first on the developers own site and at a later stage here . I have contacted them in the past but usually end up with " promises " that are never kept . I saw no reason to start any conversations " privately " as the developwers " pride " themselves as being " open & honest " with the flightsim community - until of course that you do not agree 100% with their view of events . It's never nice to wash your dirty linen in public but they do like to play the " victim " even when they are the cause of any disagreements or misundertandings .

My intention in posting here was to find out if any other painters have had their work added to a product and what they experienced . As stated it was a first for me , so had no idea how you should go about this .

I have at no stage mentioned which developer the only thing known is my own name , so if the reaction was because of my post here it has created more work for them than simply adding two names in the first place .

You know the person involved as well . ( line corrected and edited by mod.  Leen ) 

 

John

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Things have been said and points of view expressed.
As the discussion is based on one side of the whole story and we do not get a reaction from the vendor who`s actions are discussed here........

Its time to close this topic.

So I did.

 

PS
If the vendor involved wants to give his reaction here on this topic, he just has to send me a PM, asking me to re-open the topic.

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