34 minutes ago, swiesma said:

Yeah. Other companies simply add these costs to their product prices. Chris should charge 20% more and remove the support fee. Then this whining over some Euros would stop. 

Well, if they do then the prices are all in line with each other. I don’t see any big discounts for lack of ongoing support in NE / black marble products. 

Sorry but this is a slippery slope. If it becomes acceptable then more will try and copy it. Prices won’t change but there will now be an addon “subscription” for support services. 

The current system that 99% of developers use seems to work just fine with a mix of direct and forum support from users. 

When the paid-for support contract runs out enquiries will gravitate toward other support portals and they will probably disallow discussions of such products.

It is pretty simple in my eyes: pay it or don’t pay it if it doesn’t suit you?!?

I didn’t pay it either but I am aware that I do not get support afterwards. 

Again. People here pay hundreds of dollars in software and then complain about 5€ support fee?! You guys make your life hard for no reason. But what do I care? There will be the same answers and the same whine again. It’s been the same for a lot of releases in the Not to distant past. 

23 minutes ago, GHarrall said:

Well, if they do then the prices are all in line with each other. I don’t see any big discounts for lack of ongoing support in NE / black marble products. 

Sorry but this is a slippery slope. If it becomes acceptable then more will try and copy it. Prices won’t change but there will now be an addon “subscription” for support services. 

The current system that 99% of developers use seems to work just fine with a mix of direct and forum support from users. 

Well. Then use the addons from 99% of other developers. Problem solved. 

His business model is like it is. And it won’t be changed because some people don’t like it I guess. 

17 minutes ago, swiesma said:

Well. Then use the addons from 99% of other developers. Problem solved. 

His business model is like it is. And it won’t be changed because some people don’t like it I guess. 

That's what I said in a previous post. I will repeat:

"The market will decide"

I also said "He wont get a cent from me"

So yes, problem was already solved for me. I am voting with my wallet.

Purchasing ongoing Black Marble support is an option. You do not have to enter into this contractual obligation and are still guaranteed free support for the first 3 months.

Okay we are arguing a principle here which, quite clearly, is exercising a few folk. Maybe, in the end, we will have to agree to disagree. When I think of the outlay on hardware and software incurred over the past few years I consider the paltry sum of $4.98 a small price to pay for the assurance of friendly and supportive assistance I can expect from Chris whenever it should prove necessary over the next two years.

Free support for 3 months should be more than enough for most people with a stable unchanging flight sim installation. However, as we all know the reality can sometimes be very different. For example, how many times have we been faced with broken or compromised products following an update of Prepar3D? I think we can all agree that Prepar3D has become an important part of our lives yet LM will rarely rush to our aid if an update causes compatibility problems with what we regard as being an essential Addon. Such issues are generally regarded as being the responsibility of the Developer of the Addon to sort out. There follows a period of community anx as we apply often unreasonable pressures on the luckless Developer/Development team to get a move on (not all Developers have privileged advance access to P3D) and they either have to field these complaints or simply ignore them - having made the choice not to join their Beta testing 'Fastlane' program I'm still waiting patiently for Objectflow 2 to materialise so I can reinstate all my airports. Now it seems very likely that this isn't going to happen until after the release of Prepar3D v4.1.

Things have moved on since the heady cottage industry of Addons for our favourite sims. As such, my feelings are towards accepting that our attitudes and 'rights' also need to change as we enter deeper into a more competitive commercial basis for the flight sim market. Some Addons prove to be very worthy additions to our sim, are backed by a large team of Developers and, one imagines, this popularity is reflected in their actual and potentially healthy cash returns. This ensures their survival in the medium to longer term and allows greater flexibility when it comes to offering 'free' support. The situation is not nearly as clear cut with other Developers whose numbers supporting a particular product may be as low as one. Can we imagine all those pressures being brought to bear on that individual who strives to protect the viability of their creation by warding off ill-informed and unwarranted knee-jerk criticism as their fledgling product settles in. Some are lucky and this settling in period progresses very smoothly. For complex Addons like the Black Marble project the situation is less clear as the Vector component raised compatibility issues with ORBX Vector. Solutions have been found and in this ORBX, having recognised the value added by Black Marble, proved to be extraordinarily helpful. Hopefully, this willingness to cooperate with a competing product bodes well for all of us and can only be encouraged.

If we expect any Developer to provide ongoing Support for the life of a Product beyond an initial free period, then I would expect to have to pay for it in the same way I might elect to buy additional insurance to cover a domestic household item in the event of a breakdown. I was given the option to purchase or decline further Support from the Developer of Black Marble beyond the initial free 3 month period. The sum involved was very small so, for me at least, the decision was a no brainer. If you allow this optional surcharge to act as a deterrent to purchase you are missing out big time on experiencing a truly remarkable product.

Many have said they don't enjoy the vanilla Night flying experience and prefer instead to stick to daytime flight. With Black Marble this has all changed. It offers a near perfect complimentary visual balance that hitherto was missing from Prepar3D. Ongoing helpful support to protect this experience is important to me and so I am prepared to pay the ridiculously small sum to ensure that Support is always available when I need it.

Mike

 

 

However, we're not talking about something that actually needs support, rather something like a DB system for a warehouse maybe would require paid-for support on a contractual basis. If we have to ask how to install a product into the sim, if that product invokes further input from the user, if that product alters the way other products work or the way the sim works - then that 'support' should be include in the price. Let's say they change to a different system, two support issues instead of a time limited deal. Imagine coming back to the product in a few months and find it requires 'massaging' to work and the support is ended.

11 minutes ago, SteveW said:

Let's say they change to a different system, two support issues instead of a time limited deal. Imagine coming back to the product in a few months and find it requires 'massaging' to work and the support is ended.

In that scenario, Steve, I would be expecting a refund for the balance of my entitlement. Would I receive it? In the case of BM I am confident I would. In the case of others, one would hope so, but confess to feeling much less confident.

Regards, 

Mike

Not sure what you mean Mike. Do you mean you would want your two support issues refunded if not used? I mean they would be for the life of the product, rather than a time limited 'any amount' of calls.

Does support include updates or are updates no charge, regardless of whether you have support or not?

Trying to figure out what the last couple of posts have to do with P3D v4 graphic settings for best overall performance/visuals...

Mike, "I would be expecting a refund for the balance of my entitlement." - you already said you were happy to pay up front for support. After your period is ended you had what you paid for. So I'm confused exactly what refund is entitled.

 

6 minutes ago, WebMaximus said:

Trying to figure out what the last couple of posts have to do with P3D v4 graphic settings for best overall performance/visuals...

Yep. Things often sway off target, but it's about running visuals at night with special regard to low GPU Power requirements to improve visuals and performance.

For heavens sake folks, stop this banter about payware support and GET BACK ON TOPIC, this was a good thread.

Bryan

1 hour ago, 1st fltsimguy said:

For heavens sake folks, stop this banter about payware support and GET BACK ON TOPIC, this was a good thread.

Bryan

Hi Bryan,

Normally I would say you are right about this. However a statement was made during the course of this thread which ran counter to what some of us would regard as being reasonable. Consequently I felt it was only fair to try to put the other side of the argument to restore some balance. Clearly there are strong views and these should be aired if only to help expose any flaws in our respective positions.

I believe this has been a good discussion and one, I suspect, that will make more appearances on the forums as our hobby continues to evolve. Developers need to know how we feel about this before making decisions now and in the future about whether it is reasonable to charge for ongoing support.

I am grateful to the Moderators for allowing this discussion to develop. Yes, it has strayed off topic and I do wonder whether it would be possible to lift the relevant posts and place them under another topic title? However, Steve is right in that it can still be considered as being relevant under the original topic title as BM Vector does allow, potentially, the enabling of more features while offering significantly less performance hit than does ORBX Vector.

Regards,

Mike

Agreed. The moderators split out to a new topic if required.