cleonpack93

Boeing ponders restart of 767-300ER passenger line

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could be a time line thing. Maybe they can't increase the line output enough to meet the demand for the 787 and fill the gap until the 797 rolls out. The 767 line could fill this gap and meet some demands if companies are interested in buying a 767 at cost. I saw this with the Gulfstream 550 and 650 line. Orders for the these aircraft were so demanding that there was a 3 year waiting list to get an aircraft. When the 650 rolled out, Gulfstream would give a loaner 550 to the purchaser until their 650 delivered. This way purchasers felt more comfortable paying total upfront to get on the waiting list, but had a loaner jet to fly until it delivered.

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They also offered 777-200's to 787-9 customers for a lower price as that line was late on delivery as well. This worked out very well for Air New Zealand that was forced to retire 747's and 767's and couldn't wait for delivery, so you end up with a customer committed to their order but ends up with something else as well. You have to offer the customer something in the mean time if you can't meet commitments. This would be the same thing as this line is still in operation and they can extend it to offer something to Airlines as well, doesn't mean it will happen but the sales department has to have options available to keep the customer happy.

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27 minutes ago, Matthew Kane said:

They also offered 777-200's to 787-9 customers for a lower price as that line was late on delivery as well. This worked out very well for Air New Zealand that was forced to retire 747's and 767's and couldn't wait for delivery, so you end up with a customer committed to their order but ends up with something else as well. You have to offer the customer something in the mean time if you can't meet commitments. This would be the same thing as this line is still in operation and they can extend it to offer something to Airlines as well, doesn't mean it will happen but the sales department has to have options available to keep the customer happy.

Do you think there is any way for them to up production on the 787 line? Maybe take over some 747-8 space as the passenger versions are phased out of production?

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18 minutes ago, cleonpack93 said:

Do you think there is any way for them to up production on the 787 line? Maybe take over some 747-8 space as the passenger versions are phased out of production?

Looks like they already have increased production by increasing staff:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-increasing-767-production-in-everett/

 

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I guess it is not difficult or particularly expensive for them to reopen the production line given that the 767 Freighter line is still going, but, bearing in mind that this type dates back to the 1980s and hasn't really been updated, will they get many orders?

Bill

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I'm interested in seeing if it will be an exact copy of previous versions. I can imagine a 767MAX selling very well. With a cockpit taken from the 767-400ER and a new wing, gear and engine you have a great reliable plane with increased economics. Then all they have to design is a 757 replacement And they have created a direct competitor to each of the Airbus product line. 

American and even Delta might get on board with such a plane. British airways, Qantas. Endless possibilities. 

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1 hour ago, warriorpilot said:

I'm interested in seeing if it will be an exact copy of previous versions. I can imagine a 767MAX selling very well. With a cockpit taken from the 767-400ER and a new wing, gear and engine you have a great reliable plane with increased economics. Then all they have to design is a 757 replacement And they have created a direct competitor to each of the Airbus product line. 

American and even Delta might get on board with such a plane. British airways, Qantas. Endless possibilities. 

Doubt it, both the 757 and the 767 would need major redesigns from the ground up to compete with modern stuff made with composites and all that malarkey, they were both designed almost forty years ago. It's the single aisle market which Boeing really needs to worry about, sure they have the new 737 design, but that's still essentially a modernised 50 year old design competing with several much more modern designs, likewise the 747-8, which is another retread of an old design, it's really only the 787 which is a direct competitor to anything truly modern coming from Toulouse. What's next, knocking out some new 707s?

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1 hour ago, warriorpilot said:

I'm interested in seeing if it will be an exact copy of previous versions. I can imagine a 767MAX selling very well. With a cockpit taken from the 767-400ER and a new wing, gear and engine you have a great reliable plane with increased economics. Then all they have to design is a 757 replacement And they have created a direct competitor to each of the Airbus product line. 

American and even Delta might get on board with such a plane. British airways, Qantas. Endless possibilities. 


New wing?
That'd cost a fortune on re-design and manufacture of new tooling equipment.
If it were so simple and cheap, Airbus would have already re-winged the A380 to garner new orders (since the A380-900 series, for which the wing was over-designed, is now never going to happen).

A costly exercise for a very small gap in the market - the newer B787 and A330 have run away with this market segment. Time for Boeing to concentrate time and resources to deliver the B777X on time, plus design and manufacture a 797, that's where the greatest return on investment lies.
 

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30 minutes ago, Chock said:

Doubt it, both the 757 and the 767 would need major redesigns from the ground up to compete with modern stuff made with composites and all that malarkey, they were both designed almost forty years ago. It's the single aisle market which Boeing really needs to worry about, sure they have the new 737 design, but that's still essentially a modernised 50 year old design competing with several much more modern designs, likewise the 747-8, which is another retread of an old design, it's really only the 787 which is a direct competitor to anything truly modern coming from Toulouse. What's next, knocking out some new 707s?

So true. I noticed in the article that they mentioned efforts to speed up the development cycle of the 797. I think that's going to be crucial for Boeing. The big thing that is keeping them up with Airbus right now is that Airbus gambled so much on the A380 and unfortunately for them they lost that gamble. But with the A320 NEO series and A350 they are still right in the game. I saw a great video about the current Boeing/Airbus arms race and they summed it up like this:

The first aircraft company to release a suitable next-gen replacement for the 757 will be the winner. Boeing needs to get the 797 out before Airbus - or even a new competitor like China, Embraer, or Bombardier - decides to jump them.

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1 hour ago, Chock said:

What's next, knocking out some new 707s?

You know that is what I want to see Alan! :biggrin: Followed by a PMDG sim version! :laugh:

Ted

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3 hours ago, Chock said:

Doubt it, both the 757 and the 767 would need major redesigns from the ground up to compete with modern stuff made with composites and all that malarkey, they were both designed almost forty years ago. It's the single aisle market which Boeing really needs to worry about, sure they have the new 737 design, but that's still essentially a modernised 50 year old design competing with several much more modern designs, likewise the 747-8, which is another retread of an old design, it's really only the 787 which is a direct competitor to anything truly modern coming from Toulouse. What's next, knocking out some new 707s?

True True and True

One of the reasons Boeing doesn't like the CSeries is because the new wing design in the CSeries is a threat to the way they currently make wings. The CSeries wings out of Northern Ireland are currently the best in the Single Aisle offerings and Boeing knows they need to do a catch up to this type of design. They wanted the 737-MAX to last another few decades before launching something new, but the CSeries forces them to come up with something sooner.

As for a 767-MAX, no way. Boeing's biggest problem is redesigning old aircraft while other manufactures start with a fresh design not based on a former platform. 737-MAX, 747-800 (didn't catch on), 777X

Airbus did do the same but only with the A320NEO, but they now also have the CSeries so they have a mix of old redesign and new. Boeing needs a new single aisle not based on a previous design, hopefully they can work with partners in the industry to come up with something better instead of drawing lines in the sand. 

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42 minutes ago, Matthew Kane said:

As for a 767-MAX, no way. Boeing's biggest problem is redesigning old aircraft while other manufactures start with a fresh design not based on a former platform. 737-MAX, 747-800 (didn't catch on), 777X

Airbus did do the same but only with the A320NEO, but they now also have the CSeries so they have a mix of old redesign and new. Boeing needs a new single aisle not based on a previous design, hopefully they can work with partners in the industry to come up with something better instead of drawing lines in the sand. 

I think the problem is more that Boeing decided on a weirdly drawn-out timetable. Because if you look it up, Boeing decided a long time ago that they WILL re-design every plane in their lineup...but only one at a time with years and years between each release. From what I understand Boeing didn't even want to make the 737MAX, but even customers like Southwest weren't willing to wait another decade or two for an updated plane.

According to the interwebs, Project Yellowstone is Boeing's plan to completely re-design their fleet. The 787 was Y1 - the first product of this program, replacing the 767. Next up they plan to replace the 737 and 757 with Y2, most likely the rumored 797. Y3 was originally slated to replace the 747, but with those phasing out it will now probably replace the 777 instead.

My point is that when Airbus decided to pursue the A380, Boeing was right there with them. But then they correctly predicted the shift in markets and abandoned a superjumbo project to come out with the 787 instead. That was the last time Boeing outpaced Airbus in design. It's like they don't think anyone else is a threat and they can take their sweet time putting out new products. But now not only do you have Airbus, but new emerging manufacturers who are getting into the midsize market. Boeing has a plan, but unless they speed that plan up a lot they will fall way behind.

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I'm looking forward to them updating the Boeing Model 247 and the Stratocruiser, and I bet the USAF can't wait to see the new B-17X Flying Fortress NEO so they can finally retire all those BUFFS and KC-135s. In other news, deHavilland have announced the new DH-106 Comet NEO to compete with them :cool:

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