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SO666

PARK BRAKE CREEP

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Hi.

I have during engine warm up on the DC-6 severe parkbrake creep , it moves forward by as much as half the distance between the nose and main wheels , during every startup at 1000rpm .

I put a ticket in , but PMDG say they only get a small creep and have had no reports of this issue from anyone .

My sim is FSX+ACCELERATION .

I know a friend who has the same problem in P3DV3 .

All those who suffer this same issue please add your name to this post and the sim you are using and amount of creep you have.

If a lot of you suffer from this they may look into it further , else they may just brush this issue under the carpet.

regards alan cottrill.

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Alan, the slow creep is a well known phenomena. It is more pronounced on prop aircraft as they produce substantial forward force at low power settings. Parking brake uses maximum brake force and we cannot put more than that.

I know that there are tweaks and software that changes friction model of FS, maybe you use one of them.

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Hi.

Please do not respond in this manor , stick to the problem ,and  report amount of creep and sim used , so a possible workaround for a fix could be looked into , if creep very bad  like mine IS , yes i know the sim as a problem in this area and a small creep is about normal , mine is too much , this is what i am trying to astablish here , to see what sims and how bad this issue is on the DC-6 .

regards alan cottrill.

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7 minutes ago, SO666 said:

Please do not respond in this manor

Alan, you are aware that Alexander is the flight dynamics engineer from PMDG  for the DC-6 ?

 

b rdgs / Dick Knight

-

 

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54 minutes ago, SO666 said:

Please do not respond in this manor , stick to the problem ,and  report amount of creep and sim used , so a possible workaround for a fix could be looked into , if creep very bad  like mine IS , yes i know the sim as a problem in this area and a small creep is about normal , mine is too much , this is what i am trying to astablish here , to see what sims and how bad this issue is on the DC-6 .

Alan,

Please do not respond in your own manner here. You're taking a shot at the person who created the flight dynamics of the 6, who was actually attempting to point you in a direction to look into, but you're so stuck on the idea that it is of our doing that you're blind to the idea that it is unique to your (and your friend's) sim.

So, instead of insisting it is our problem to fix - which, who knows, it may well be - please be open to the idea (and likelihood) that it is local to your machine. Statistically, if this were a code-side (PMDG) problem, you'd see many more reports of this in the forum and in the support queue. This is not the case. So, to get us on track here...Alexander mentioned that it may be caused by tweaks made to your sim. Please let us know if you are using any of these, or hardware brakes, or FSUIPC to alter/edit/tweak/calibrate/assign any axes.

There is literally no point in coming here to blindly point a finger. This is a discussion forum, and not a tribunal. If you've already made up your mind that it is our problem to fix, and will not be receptive to any counterpoints, then you might want to save all of our time and simply rest on your assertion. Or you can choose to participate here to help us determine where the issue lies.

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Hi.

First off it was not made clear to me , that Alexander M. Metzger was a PMDG representative , secondly i am open to finding this problem , and was hoping by the answers given by others , if some common denominator of the problem could be found ..

Yes i do use FSUIPC to set my controls up , as it gives greater options than FSX controls .

Also i found a freeware file yeterday that seems to fix this problem , how its done i dont know , but if PMDG know of the sims shortfall , to overcome this is it posible to make some kind of gauge for the dc-6 that can give a stronger parkbrake , to stop this creep , which on my sim is very excessive , and spoiling my experience of this aircraft.

Xplane users may not have this problem which this aircraft was originally made for , and therefore only give problems in the P3DV3/4 and FSX users more so if FSUIPC  is used , but i did not get a satisfactory reply to this problem regarding the ticket sent.hence this post to see how many have this bad parkbrake issue

regards alan cottrill.

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3 minutes ago, SO666 said:

Yes i do use FSUIPC to set my controls up , as it gives greater options than FSX controls .

See, stuff like this is useful to us to help us help you. Instead, so far, the only thing I've gotten from you is "this is PMDG's problem," when, statistically, you're the only one I'm aware of with the problem, so it's not looking like it's our issue.

Move the FSUIPC.ini out of the <sim>\modules folder temporarily to let it rebuild. This will eliminate any issues FSUIPC brings into the mix.

5 minutes ago, SO666 said:

Also i found a freeware file yeterday that seems to fix this problem , how its done i dont know , but if PMDG know of the sims shortfall , to overcome this is it posible to make some kind of gauge for the dc-6 that can give a stronger parkbrake , to stop this creep , which on my sim is very excessive , and spoiling my experience of this aircraft.

We actually have a pretty comprehensive ground contact model in the DC-6, so, while you may feel like it's a simple thing to just fix, it isn't, and we have worked very intensively to sidestep the shortcomings of the sim.

6 minutes ago, SO666 said:

more so if FSUIPC  is used

"[M]ore so if FSUIPC is used." One may want to have a look into this idea, instead of pointing solely at it being our problem, despite evidence to the contrary.

7 minutes ago, SO666 said:

but i did not get a satisfactory reply to this problem regarding the ticket sent.hence this post to see how many have this bad parkbrake issue

This is understandable. Do keep in mind, I didn't say "don't post your issue," or that you were wrong in soliciting extra opinions/experiences. All I said was that you seem to be pretty set on this being caused by us, despite evidence to the contrary. Troubleshooting and fixes don't come from simply pointing and saying "this is your issue."

Troubleshooting and fixes come from you volunteering as much information as possible so that we can get an idea of why it seems out of sorts to you. We don't see it because our computers and setups are not yours. We can't read minds, and we don't have access to your computer, so...help us help you...

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Hi.

When i sent in a ticket , you PMDG looked into it and reported it could not be reproduced your end  FAIR COMMENT , but i was never asked to supply more info like how are my controls set up , ie in FSX or FSUIPC , had i been asked for more info , in order to get to the cause of this issue i would have done so  , which would help you to maybe recreate the issue, and then  given advice by you on where to look for this issue , in the hope of fixing it .

regards alan cottrill.

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29 minutes ago, SO666 said:

When i sent in a ticket , you PMDG looked into it and reported it could not be reproduced your end  FAIR COMMENT , but i was never asked to supply more info like how are my controls set up , ie in FSX or FSUIPC , had i been asked for more info , in order to get to the cause of this issue i would have done so  , which would help you to maybe recreate the issue, and then  given advice by you on where to look for this issue , in the hope of fixing it .

If your commentary here is anything like it was in the ticket, I'm not surprised that's all you got. You seem sure it's on our end. If we cannot reproduce, then you can certainly push back, but you'd have to provide some sort of evidence, or volunteer information. We don't have time to chase every single issue people throw at us, particularly if only one person reports it, and we cannot reproduce it.

I don't think that's unreasonable.

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I don't mean to stir the pot, but just to add my personal experience for the OP

I use FSX:Acceleration (Boxed) with no FSUIPC installed, on a Windows 10 Machine. I have no rudder pedals.

I find that at any weight the PMDG DC-6B exhibits no creep with the parking brake applied and engines at 1000 RPM

In fact, if I keep the engines at around 850-900 RPM the aircraft will remain stationary (at any weight) even with the parking brake released.

Robert Toten

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1 hour ago, randomTOTEN said:

I don't mean to stir the pot, but just to add my personal experience for the OP

Same here and with many session in the DC6 including the beta.  I keep the engines at 1000 RPM and the parking brake holds.  I recall a discussion during beta regarding if the aircraft should start creeping without brakes with 1000 RPM and the consensus from the guys on the team flying the DC6 was yes; however, the parking brake is expected to hold her without problem.  Hope this helps the OP isolate where the problem is in their system.

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15 hours ago, randomTOTEN said:

I don't mean to stir the pot, but just to add my personal experience for the OP

I use FSX:Acceleration (Boxed) with no FSUIPC installed, on a Windows 10 Machine. I have no rudder pedals.

I find that at any weight the PMDG DC-6B exhibits no creep with the parking brake applied and engines at 1000 RPM

In fact, if I keep the engines at around 850-900 RPM the aircraft will remain stationary (at any weight) even with the parking brake released.

Robert Toten

I can confirm no creeping on Windows 10 Home 64bit, with Saitek rudder pedals, in P3Dv4, FSUIPC installed (without assignments/configuration), but with LINDA-module installed/configured. For setting the parking brakes I use the default P3D/FSX key-command (CTRL+.). On the parking brakes I can even run-up the engines to 30" and then switch to high-blowers for testing, and still get no creeping, regardless of dry/wet surfaces and gross-weight.

Have you checked your hydraulic pressure? Maybe your brakes have not enough pressure to hold the plane in place. For the start-up I leave the chocks set until the engines are running, as you dont have any hydraulic pressure without the inboard engines running. You could also try to use the emergency/electric hydraulic pump with the pump selector valve set to the brake system.

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Hi Finn88.

If you notice the chocs are auto removed weather you like it or not , as soon as the first engine fires up , and yes i do use that emerg hyd brakes switch , to keep brake pressure at stated poh reading  , until all four engines are running , as this hyd switch is a pre start checklist item , and i also noticed the hyd pressure drops to zero , if its turned off after testing prior engine start , hence why i keep it on , knowing that chocks are removed to soon in my opinion  .

I have also noticed at engine warmup all 4 engines at 1000rpm with the emerg hyd switch off , the pressure drops to 2000psi , which is below what is stated in the poh , to  what it should be 2600 - 3050psi  , and i did report this in my ticket , just incase this might have some bearing on my issue .

But thanks for feed back .

regards alan cottrill.

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Alan,

I'd suggest taking our feedback to heart, and evaluating it appropriately. I had mentioned specific actions related to FSUIPC earlier. Hearing back on that item would help me help you.

I'm all for people helping themselves, but you seem to be a little irritated that you didn't get more support in the support portal. Based on your actions here, I'm not at all surprised. If I suggest that you do something, you should do it...otherwise, you're better off troubleshooting on your own, and in that case, need to be okay with not receiving more support from others, based on your own decision to ignore the advice laid out.

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14 hours ago, SO666 said:

If you notice the chocs are auto removed weather you like it or not , as soon as the first engine fires up

Pretty brave those PMDG-groundhandlers, to creep around underneath my plane to remove the chocks while I'm firing up the engines.... :laugh::laugh::laugh: 

In your situation, I would (just for a test) try to remove FSUIPC and configure all controls via P3D-settings (what the manuals actually says to do so), and then look if you still get creeping. When the creeping stops, the problem is definitely with FSUIPC, and you should contact the developer of FSUIPC. When the creeping persists, you can rule out FSUIPC as a cause for the creeping. What else add-ons / modules do you use in your sim (weather/scenery/online-Networks)? And do you get creeping with other 3rd party planes?

Circling in a IT-problem can really be a pain in the a** and very time consuming. I know what I'm talking about, because it's my daily business.

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Hi.

Getting rid of FSUIPC to check for creep , is the very last resort i wish to do but i may have to bite the bullet eventually, as this is the only aircraft with severe creep , my A2A connie creeps , with the usual FSX flaw , but not as bad as this aircraft .

What i tried last night was to remove the brakes from FSUIPC and put the brakes through FSX control , i still had creep but it was reduced , to about 1/3rd of distance from mains to nose , instead of half distance .

Then as i took the brakes from FSX and put them back through FSUIPC , i spotted something not quite right , so i have a line of testing to check , the parkbrake message bottom left stays on when parkbrake set , but when checking FSUIPC buttons and switches , with engines running and the parkbrake switch selected in FSUIPC  , it was going on and off  in FSUIPC selection page , yet with engines shut down , the switch in FSUIPC for parkbrake remained  solid in FSUIPC .

if the parkbrake is going on off in FSUIPC with engines running yet parkbrake message in bottom left of FSX screen is shown on till button release , this might explain the severe creep , i now have to find the cause of the FSUIPC / FSX interferance with engines running.

If i have to get rid of the FSUIPC.ini file and rebuild another , then it will take me ages to set all my aircraft controls up again , this may have to be done yet , but i will not be looking forward to that headache , as i have different controls for different variants of same aircraft regarding ail/ele/rud slope values.

regards alan.

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Allan, you can always make a copy of the FSIUPC.ini file and store it somewhere lse for access. It is just a text file you can easily edit and look up. I have like you probably 10+ profiles in there for different throttle quadrants and stick and yoke.

 If something works I make a copy so if I screw up somemthing in the next steps I just copy the sved version back in.

Once you understand the three elements per profile, you can copy past or clean them up by your aircrafts assigned to profiles. 

I use a concept of grouping which is defined by 

engine type and number (prop, turbo, jet and number) - control (stick or yoke)

You may be aware that once you assign an aircraft via the assign menu, it takes the unique identifier of the aircraft to assign the settings when loaded. If you have other liveries to use the same profile just edit the .ini file and delete the redundant entries.

For example if you want to use the same profile for the whole PMDG  Boeing 737-x00 series, you can catch all models and liveries by just having one profile

Profile Jet2_yoke

1=PMDG Boeing 73

 And if that adjustment fits for you Tripple 7 too just add

2=PMDG Boeing 77

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Hi.

My profiles are very different from the one you use , to give an example , i have all the captsim C130 aircraft , all the 100 in one group 300 in another , float version on its own and the radome version and ski versions on their own , with different elevator slope values so they all fly differently , as would the real versions , but i know what you are getting at , and yes i normally backup the ini every time an aircraft is added , but its still time consuming , i have over 70 profiles at last count. covering over 500 aircraft.

Also i found what was causeing last nights parkbrake switch corruption and fixed it , and have just done an engine start and runup tests on the DC-6 , i still have what i would call excessive creep , but do see a slight improvement on amount of creep over what i was getting.

i can stop the creep fully by using a freeware file called parkbrake fix v2 but would prefere not to use it if possible , but during testing , i could see no adverse affects so far , how this works i have no idea , but it works.

Also on a side note , when i go from inside view to outside view , i notice a slight vertical jump in the aircraft , but cannot remember the cause and fix , but think its a setting in the scenery that causes it , could you enlighten me as to this issue.

regards alan cottrill.

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3 minutes ago, SO666 said:

My profiles are very different from the one you use , to give an example , i have all the captsim C130 aircraft , all the 100 in one group 300 in another , float version on its own and the radome version and ski versions on their own , with different elevator slope values so they all fly differently , as would the real versions , but i know what you are getting at , and yes i normally backup the ini every time an aircraft is added , but its still time consuming , i have over 70 profiles at last count. covering over 500 aircraft.

Also i found what was causeing last nights parkbrake switch corruption and fixed it , and have just done an engine start and runup tests on the DC-6 , i still have what i would call excessive creep , but do see a slight improvement on amount of creep over what i was getting.

Sounds a lot like you're making a ton of assumptions about how aircraft fly, and try to force them to behave how you want them to behave through FSUIPC.

If that's what you'd like, then that's fine, but don't expect the aircraft to behave properly, as designed.

I mentioned a way to check for FSUIPC issues in my earlier post. Have you tried this?

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Hi.

Not yet no , and i wont be doing so before sunday , as i require FSUIPC for a mission on saturday with the 91st bombardment group in the A2A B17 .

but i will try it , although reluctantly , as i dont think it will fix it fully.

regards alan cottrill.

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1 minute ago, SO666 said:

but i will try it , although reluctantly , as i dont think it will fix it fully.

There's literally no reason to be reluctant about it. It's a temporary removal of the .ini file. You can put it back in after you load the sim a single time to check...

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Hi.

Well i did try removing the FSUIPC.ini file out of my sim , set the DC-6 controls up through FSX, did pre startup checks , started engines , and followed the checklist for the engines runup checks and aircraft still creeps by about 1/3rd distance between the nose and main wheels .

i have now restored the FSUIPC.ini and deleted the temp controls i set up in FSX .

This amount of creep is excessive , if it was about 1/2 to 1 full dia of nose wheel i would consider that normal , out of over 500 aircraft in my sim , this as the worst brake creep of them all most dont move an inch , a2a connie moves about 1 to 1.5 times dia of nose wheel .

Until such time as you can figure out what might be the cause of my DC-6 issue, i will use that brake fix v2 on your DC-6 , that stops it moving until brakes are released.

regards alan cottrill.

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3 hours ago, SO666 said:

Until such time as you can figure out what might be the cause of my DC-6 issue

This is an absurd statement, you are the only one with the problem. How can you expect others to find the cause?

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Hi Downscc.

When i wrote that statement i did not think it was that bad , on reflection it does sound bad , i appologise for that , but thats not what i ment , it was just the wrong words .

What i was meaning is , i tried the suggestion of eliminating the FSUIPC as the probable cause , something is causeing this issue , but now wondering what else needs looking into as to the cause .

Also i have a friend who uses P3Dv3 with same amount of creep , hes just not reported it ,and when i mentioned my problem he told me he had not gone to the outside view before so had not noticed , he then tested his and reported back to me he had same issue , there could well be more out there with the issue , but never go to outside view to notice just how much its creeping.

I am now at a loss as to why some have this issue and others dont and if you never go to outside view or have the aircraft positioned on the parking tee bar  prior to engine startup and checks , then they may not notice how bad it is.

regards alan cottrill.

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Hi Alan, I understand and no harm done.  The suggestion to move the fsuipc ini to the desktop is usually to "go to" response for any controller issues and it either solves or isolates the problem to fsuipc setup 95% of the time.  The other 5% of the time is a faulty controller or calibration.

A creep of any distance greater than a foot would certainly be recognized by many. But I'll agree that a slow movement might not be recognized by some.  That isn't the point, the point is you have a problem that is not widely reported and cannot be reproduced by PMDG or a few of us beta testers.  I could imagine a problem with brakes in FSX that does not occur in P3D, but it would be a stretch. 

I assume that when you removed the fsuipc ini from the configuration, you assigned your brakes via the FSX controls and you calibrated your brakes via the windows game controller interface?  It is hard for me to provide much advice on FSX since I abandoned it completely a couple of years ago.  P3D provides a much more robust controller interface that is compatible with DirectX controllers and seldom needs any third party controller middleware.  If you use FSUIPC I presume you do not use third party middleware, could that be an issue?

I assume you have not applied one of those friction correction schemes to FSX that are supposed to make rolling friction more realistic?

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