:-erks

Thats the strange thing. If you wait it out you can get the Aerosoft version with printed manuals, its own backup CD and unlimited installs that you don't have to activate via the internet. This boxed package with all the extra's costs about the same as the download version PMDG delivers themself.The boxed package has its own costs to produce (printing manuals, burning the CD, distributing the box). On top of that the distributor doesn't work for free and takes a large part of the profit. Its sure that PMDG makes a lot more money from the download version.Charging for the occasional extra downloads wil help PMDG cutting costs and maximising profit in the short term. However it seems to fall bad with some online customers. If these customers switch to the boxed release or even stop buying PMDG products then the long term profits will go down.I think that their policy is shortsighted.

I happened to see the post of Pike on the other forum, and i didn't think there was anything unduly wrong with it, but unfortunately PMDG don't like any criticism and several other posts have gone the same way 'zap' ! i myself think it is a mean policy to charge users again for another d/l link, remember it originally was offered free of charge for one year after purchase, and anyway they do get all the distribution benefits of product sales via the internet- no cd or manual to produce, but now it seems this is not enough, may be they could give one extra free d/l after purchase but it seems the new policy is set in stone. i also don't think it is fair to have to buy the 747 freighter version in order to get fixes and enhancements for the passenger version that are incorporated in the latest version.Adam

I'll second that - this whole "rant" belongs in the hangar chat forum.

"I'll second that - this whole "rant" belongs in the hangar chat forum."I recently left my role as forum moderator, so if you or Rudi see an opportunity, go for it :)Seriously, Hangar Chat is probably where I would have placed the thread but it's also understandable why the author would have placed the thread here, since PMDG is an MSFS add-on provider. Actually this whole thread has made me realize--I haven't flown the 1900D in a long time--gotta fire that one up and take her for a spin....-John

Want some cheese with that whine?If you buy a CD based product you'd get no replacement if you lost that CD. In my experiences PMDG are more than reasonable and if you did lose your installer without backup then as long as you explained yourself in an intelligent manner and didn't have a history of 10 download reactivations then I doubt they'd hold you to it.I still find it laughable that people complain about their prices. Simple thing to do is to not buy them and buy some other inferior 747 product that you'll more than likely use just as effectively.PMDG products are expensive because of the DEPTH of them. Unfortunately most users don't even scratch the surface and therefore feel "ripped off".

wow, once again I am amazed at how people will just toss money around. no add on for FS is worth more then $30 as far as I am concerned. The fact that people say "I'll pay whatever they ask" kills me. Are these the same people that complain when gas prices goes over $3??The game cost $50 why would you by an addon thats more then the game??When people say "I'll pay whatever they want" or "It's worth three times as much as they charge!!" it's no wonder they charge as much as they do. It's not like this is a "company" in that they have large overheads to cover like store space rent and so on, these are 5 guys in there basements on a PC for gods sake!Okay, I simplified some of that but you get the idea.

I couldn't agree more John. Flight1 sets a standard for all to strive for. I'm one of those guys who continually bit-fiddles everything with a lot of reinstalls as a result. Never, ever, a problem reinstalling any Flight1 product. In fact, I've decided this past year to never again buy any add-on that requires any form of hardware-binding without the ease of a Flight1 reinstall/key reactivation. I'm too old to worry about sending notes to some support guy asking for permission to again use what I've already paid for.Doug

Phillip,Encouraging the user to provide a backup is much different than asking go $16 for a download. And I am not going to believe for a second that the bandwidth is costing PMDG so much that this is necessary. If that were true, then how exactly do developers like FSD and Eaglesoft do it with products that are cheaper to begin with? And the poster above is correct--PMDG does not incur the same charges as vendors who provide products that are boxed. Also Phillip, you shouldn't assume that people are deleting their install files---I had bought an external drive for backup purposes, and unfortunately I accidently erased while installing a new system. Things like that happen, and its nice to know that a company like Flight 1 understands that when you are charged $30 for a downloaded product that costs next to nothing in terms of material (no CD's, manuals, etc.) that customer service is paramount if repeat business is expected. And that is what this is really all about. I have paid about $100 so far to PMDG and WOULD have planned to spend another $100 or more on the 747 and MD-11. Instead they got my $16. Last time I checked $100 > $16 and I fail to see how that makes business sense for PMDG. I appealed to them that I wouldn't be the only one to take this view and subsequently had my post deleted. And for you that so rudely come on this thread and call me a whiner---since when is it whining to disagree with a policy? It's not as if I've decided to keep buying their airplanes--I've stated clearly that I won't be. If all you can do is come on here and attack me for disagreeing with a policy then shame on you and grow up. I'm not throwing stones, simply airing out my grievance with a company that I have been a customer of. Just because I don't share your view doesn't make me a crybaby, whiner, etc anymore than you standing up for PMDG makes you a a really excited user. I've not once called anyone names or insulted anyone for disagreeing with me!And I chose this thread because if it's "General" discussion then that would seem to be a perfect fit for something like this.

>Want some cheese with that whine?>>If you buy a CD based product you'd get no replacement if you>lost that CD. In my experiences PMDG are more than reasonable>and if you did lose your installer without backup then as long>as you explained yourself in an intelligent manner and didn't>have a history of 10 download reactivations then I doubt>they'd hold you to it.>>I still find it laughable that people complain about their>prices. Simple thing to do is to not buy them and buy some>other inferior 747 product that you'll more than likely use>just as effectively.>>PMDG products are expensive because of the DEPTH of them.>Unfortunately most users don't even scratch the surface and>therefore feel "ripped off".Hello Neil,Would it pain you to show some class and not insult me just because I have a different view on the subject than you? Perhaps I should just call you a a really excited user and be done with it? Would you say that the LDS 767 is any less in depth than the 747? Honestly you couldn't say it is. Yet it's $15 bucks cheaper and offers the FULL Flight1 support, D/L's included. What about the Aeroworx King Air, SST Concord? I could go on. You need to develop your argument a little better than that. Let it be understood that I had a backup system in place, and it failed. Crap happens sometimes no matter how well you think you are prepared. I won't be buying any more PMDG products because when that crap happens I know there are places like Flight 1 and FSD that will be there to suport me. Because when you pay $100 for products that don't even require a box, manual, etc. I think customer service becomes paramount. Because of $16, PMDG will lose out on me buying the 747's and the MD-11 AND anything else they produce. Last time I checked $100+ > $16. That's math that is hard to argue with, and my opinion is that I'm not the only one who thinks that way about this.If you disagree, hey no problem--we all have our views and thats what makes these forums great. But at least show more class than the two posters above and leave the petty insults in elementary school where they belong.

>public forum can't accept criticism of a controversial policy.> I was civil, and even praised PMDG for their great aircraft. >Yet they decided to delete my post. If you can't take the heat>of a public forum PMDGThey certainly, per the rules of their own forum, have right to delete posts that question any aspect of their business policies and practicies. So you should not be surprised that your post got deleted regardless if your language was civil or not. If you have any quarrel with that policy - ask Avsim if PMDG is in violation of Avsim's policies.Michael J.http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/for...argo_hauler.gifhttp://sales.hifisim.com/pub-download/asv6-banner-beta.jpg

I'm not questioning their right--I've never said they didn't have the right to delete the post. What I said is I think it is sad that a business would do something like that, instead of perhaps replying or just locking the thread. I didn't flame them or do anything that deserved having my opinion snuffed into obilivion. My retribution is #1 Not buying anymore of their products (which this week cost them $60 since I went with LDS instead) and #2 This thread. I also posted this thread because I was curious what other people thought about this topic. Most replied with genuine insight, and a couple decided to resort to immature insults. Deleting my post like they did is without a doubt against the spirit of these forums, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was a violation of the base policies by AVSIM. Nevertheless I'm not looking for a fight here. Simply a chance to air out my grievance and move on, which I think it is time for me to do right about now. Thanks for listening.

>Al,>>It is their ONLY forum. Where else would be better to post>such a thread? well I think your question is answered by this topic

HI there Philip,Glad you are back with us after your illness.How's it all going and how's your life thesedays?You don't seem to be responding to your phone or email messages I've been trying to send to to you to wish you well.Peter

After having read this thread, I'm not sure what the true issue is; Are we discussing the fact that a) Pike's posting in the PMDG support forum was removed or :( the fact that you don't have at least - but preferrably eternal - 1 year of free re-downloading of the installation file?If the first instance I can understand why it was deleted: It wasn't a support issue, hence O/T. Another thing is that their is no other option for posting such issues that does not belong in >commercial support>The PMDG Support Forum. As for instance a >PMDG Customer Relations, where this should all belong whether it in relation to a) or :(.My personal opinion is that a) stinks of McCarthyism and good ol' Stalinistic censorship if deleted for being critical of PMDG sales conditions and EULA and :( is acceptable. As others have stated, if I accept buying a download product, its my responsibility to put it on a CD if I want to have it for safekeeping. It will probably end up on my "never used things"-shelf, but just to be sure...However, one must - though reluctantly - accept that off topic issues are erased, however it should be explained why the topic has been removed. If not for any other reason than being polite.My two centsJohan PlaneUppsala, SwedenEdit: There is now an explanation in The PMDG Support Forum that I do see as reasonable - if correct. However, it could have been solved in a more orderly way by PMDG IMHO, by locking thread and deleting the truly offensive postings.-http://www.scandinavian-va.net/pilots/images/SE.gif