Morning Everyone,Couple days ago I posted a complaint on the PMDG forum. I didn't rant, didn't blast the company. I was dissapointed about the new redownload policy, because I felt it was unnecessary and made PMDG simply look greedy, considering the high price they charge on the front end for their mainline products. I won't go into my post verbatim, but two days later the thread has been deleted (after 4 posts). I realize that everyone has an opinion about companies charging for redownloads--I feel that if Flight 1, FSD, Eaglesoft, etc can offer unlimited D/L support then someone like PMDG--who have made headlines before about the high price of their products, should be able too as well. But thats just my opinion, and I'm not calling for a boycott or anything. Not everyone shares my opinion, and I respect that. I did decide this week to buy the LDS 767 instead of the 747 because of this, and suggested that others may feel the same. Again, not saying I'm undeniably right or anything, but what I am saying is that is wrong to delete threads at AVSIM that don't violate any policies, aren't abusive, and come from a paying customer of 3 years.I think its really sad when a company who uses a 3rd party public forum can't accept criticism of a controversial policy. I was civil, and even praised PMDG for their great aircraft. Yet they decided to delete my post. If you can't take the heat of a public forum PMDG, then stop using up AVSIM's bandwidth, use some of that cash you're stripping loyal customers of and open up your OWN PRIVATE FORUM. You've certainly lost my business from here on--and you won't be deleting this post.

A few of their products are repackaged on CD by Aerosoft such as all the 7xx suites, usually shortly after the products has stabalized. I bought both the 600/700 and 800/900 that way. As I recall, but not sure, the key was provided with the CD. Aedrosoft also supplied a service pack download for the CDs. This avoids a redownload process and a service pack can be burned to CD.Perhaps patience for the release of the packaged product might be worth it.I have got to praise the several products released by Aerosoft (Germany) in that both the PMDG 737NG products came with hard copy manuals each for flight ops and the FMC. I also bought their airport scenery suites of Germany 1, 3, 4, France 1, 2, and MegaFrankfurt. The airport packages came with descriptive manuals regarding each airport and all matched current Jepp terminal chart (DP, STAR, IAP, airport diagram and parking detail where appropriate) all hard copy.Their support forum has been great for any needed patches.I think they check the products before release not necessarily catching every problem but at least insure the product is viable.

> because I felt it was>unnecessary and made PMDG simply look greedy, considering the>high price they charge on the front end for their mainline>products. be thankful they dont charge what they should, a product in development as complicated and thourough as that, it could easily go for a hundred bucks each addon. the freighter could have been another full price as well.if you think the price is too high and you believe they are greedy, do what anyone would do, DONT BUY ITThey have every right to delete it as it isnt a rant and rave forum, but a SUPPORT forum. for support issues.

Alex,I recall ... 4-5 years ago paying $260 ++ for PS1.3 ... and you are ABSOLUTELY correct ... the PMDG 744 passenger and freighter are certainly very very close to the detail of PS1.3 ... no doubt in my mind ... and I'm sure that most people would pay more for the PMDG 744's.While I respect your right to criticise, Pike, I don't understand quibbling over such a small amount of $$$, honestly ... it's your hard earned money I'm sure, but I don't get it ... I would say it's your loss.

This issue is not whether the initial product is worth it, clearly it is. However, when I bought it the price included support, which in turn included the ability to download the product as I needed, i.e. after an FS9 rebuild. I used this service about 6 mths ago. There is a company that charges for downloads of the product after a certain time and I go out of my way to avoid that company. I want to buy something and know what it is going to cost, and especially not have the cost changed after I purchase it. It's not a lot of money, but it's inconvenient having to enter credit card numbers etc. and it just leaves a feeling of having been squeezed for a few extra pennies. This post is the first I've heard about the new policy, and the more I think about it the more I dislike it. To implement it at all, and especially after the fact, is not something I would have expected of PMDG.billg

What PMDG or any company does with their product support policy is up to them. It's the customer's choice on whether or not to accept them before purchase. I don't however agree with their apparant policy to delete messages at whim! AVSIM has always been a very open forum. Yes they have locked posts (Rightfully so) that were over the top and was getting out of hand, but rarely do they delete them, and then only if they are really offensive or breaks a major AVSIM rule. AVSIM has graciously allowed commercial developers like PMDG to host their forums here, and I think it is incumbent of them to abide by AVSIM's general rules as we all are, and not impose their own rules that are in contrast to those. If they want to do that, then they should have their own independant forum. If however AVSIM themselves are ok with their (and other 3rd party developers that host forums here) policies (and I assume they are), then that is what matters most , no matter what our opinions are.

Al,It is their ONLY forum. Where else would be better to post such a thread? And as I said, I wasn't ranting and raving, only voicing my displeasure at their policy. PMDG also makes it clear that they check that forum daily, so I figured that would be the place to air out my concerns. I aired them out, and that would have been the end of it. But when they delete my post because it wasn't favorable of them (or whatever reason they had), that really ticks me off, since they choose to use the services here at AVSIM instead of paying for their own private forum.As for charging $100 for their aircraft. If FS2004 can be designed, developed, and shipped put in a tin box for $50, I find it hard to swallow someone charging any more than is presently charged. Not to mention that few would actually pay that price, in my opinion. Be thankful that I only paid $60 for the 737 line? Are you kidding?"if you think the price is too high and you believe they are greedy, do what anyone would do, DONT BUY IT"If you read my post thouroughly, you would see that I did just that--I didn't buy the 747, opting for the LDS 767 and the Flight1 support that goes with it. I would love to see the Queen in action, I know from others takes that its a terrific airplane. But when you can only afford one or the other (money and timewise), items like free redownloads can make the difference. Anyway I never intended to take the argument this far, but thanks for listening anyway.P.S. After seeing some other posts:To me, $16 (the price to download all my airplanes) isn't that small--guess I'm poor.And I should mention that part of what has riled me up is that I too bought my products before this policy and would have thought twice as well about buying them then too. I also want it to be clear that none of my posts (those deleted) were of any different tone than this one. I wasn't, and still am not trying to be a jerk. Just an upset customer.

On a technical note I believe Avsim charges commercial vendors in some way shape or form and their forums are private and seperate from the rest of Avsim. I could be wrong though, but I thought that was the policy.

Pike,I really don't want to comment on PMDG, but indirectly I will. I just recently tried to install USA Roads via the Flight1 Wrapper. It seems the download was getting corrupted, so I had to download and reinstall the package EIGHT times before I could get the product to install. It finally installed after I turned off DMA on my HD prior to my last download.Why I mention this is I want to commend Flight1 (as if they haven't already earned such attention long before) for their tolerance of multiple downloads. Halfway through the process I had to revalidate my registration key, but point is the process was painless and I had a revalidation email virtually the instant I requested it. Whenever threads appear about copy protection, download restrictions, etc, I believe those vendors mentioned should reconsider Flight1's model. It seems a successful one, and Flight1 is certainly at great risk for piracy too. They've managed a compromise which allows customers with issues like mine a way to deal with them without reaching the frustration that you have.-John

Avsim DOES NOT provide their forum for free guys. Again I might be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure I'm right.

If I'm mistaken about PMDG getting a free forum here, I certainly apologize--but going against the open attitude of the AVSIM forums is still wrong, especially since I made a point to observe the rules in my posts.And I agree John, Flight1 has certainly provided the standard by which other developers should be judged. Their support is outstanding and a major reason why I have purchased over a dozen of their products over the years.

I thought.. you don't need to redownload if you had the original downloaded file. Its only to reactiviate after a certain number of installs that you have to contact them. IF a a reasonable assurance is given that it was the original purchaser thats reinstalling they would let you do that I believe.As far as this "As for charging $100 for their aircraft. If FS2004 can be designed, developed, and shipped put in a tin box for $50, I find it hard to swallow someone charging any more than is presently charged. Not to mention that few would actually pay that price, in my opinion. Be thankful that I only paid $60 for the 737 line? Are you kidding?Well its your opinion and you are entitled to it I am sure.IMO, they can charge $20,000 for it if they want. Its an economic decision of demand/supply and they have every right to make that and you have every right to scream murder.... If I have to pay $16 for a GA aircraft that has default guages with the only value added is one measily 2D photo panel. (I still bought it cause that was only one available) paying $60 for something like the 747 is fair price. If I can't afford it, I'll buy a less costly plane or not at all.As far as deleting your post. Yeah..thats not nice.MannyPS: Edited to add. I'll tell you whats an outrage.. ATI and nVidea Charging $600 for a video card that hardly adds value over a $100 video card and where you can get a great PC for $800.;)

While I am not a fan of having to pay for a re-download after I purchase an item... I can say that it is up to individual companies to do what they feel is best for their own succuss. It is up to the potential customer to figure out if it is worth their effort or not. When I download a product I always back it up on CD. It doesn't matter if I download freeware or payware. I just hate redownloading items over and over again. Payware companies do not seem to be charging for patches, which I download and back up on CD also.Best advice for those that do not want to be nickel and dimed to death is invest in a DVD or CDrom burner and back all your stuff up. Also keep all your registration codes on the same CD as your purchases in a text document or something. All my confirmation emails and registation emails I get from payware companies I back up in Text document form for future reference. You never know when you are going to have a computer melt down and you will need to reinstall your favorite payware and freeware. Organization is key to a great running FS.Kevin

>Also keep all your registration codes on the same>CD as your purchases in a text document or something. All my>confirmation emails and registation emails I get from payware>companies I back up in Text document form for future>reference. You never know when you are going to have a>computer melt down and you will need to reinstall your>favorite payware and freeware. Organization is key to a great>running FS.>>Kevinyup..thats what I do. I cut paste the e-mails that is sent with order confirmation, key if any, credit card number used etc right away in a Notepad and save it along with the downloaded file in a directory. Sometimes...(this is very annoying with some vendors), when a reinstall is made, they ask for some information that was not required in the first install, I update that process change and new info or whatnot in the note pad.I also have a small notebook that I maintain. That I write down these things with a pen. This notebook comes useful when I have to reinstall everything. I just go one by one on the list and reinstall. without looking for that notepad. That is just backup.Manny

I might be wrong here but I seem to remember that PMDG encouraged the customer to make a back up of their download because at PMDG's discretion they could charge a small fee for the re-download of their product. That policy had been in place for quite some time so really this new policy is not that far removed from it. So for those that have said that they read the terms before buying I don't think they read them very well. I really do not understand why if someone buys a product online they would not keep a copy of the install file in case they have to re-install it. CD's are cheap, today's hard drives are massive in size so keeping a few install programs is not a big deal. On the other hand why should PMDG have to continue paying for the bandwidth for people who do not look after their own property? While your post may not have been abusive some people have just gone over the top in their complaining about this policy and in some ways I can not blame PMDG for not wanting on the forums. These people can not be reasoned with, even if Robert R. were to give a step by step account of why they felt they needed to do this those people would just throw stones. I think that they feel it is company policy, not open for debate so why allow the forums to turn into a war zone. PMDG had always been very reasonable and kind in my dealings with them. I can only think that in their opinion too many people were re-downloading their files rather than backing them up. How many people here throw away the CD after they install a program they bought from a store? So why in heck would anyone delete the install file that they downloaded? Even if you lose the install disk of something that you purchased how many of you expect to get a free replacement disk from the store or manufacturer? Very few offer anything like this and even so normally you have to pay some sort of postage if not a handling fee. It costs them money to send the CD, just as it costs PMDG for the bandwidth. We can not know what goes on at PMDG but I suspect that the costs were pretty high for them to enact an unpopular decision such as this. All the best, Philip Olsonhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/supporter.jpg