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morpheous

Insert Vector point

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Hello, Is it possible to insert a (vector) waypoint into the FMC? 

Many times there is a disconnect between the last waypoint in a STAR and the first waypoint on the approach so I usually just connect the 2 but I know that I will be vectored onto the approach so is there a way to tell the FMC that?

Jim V.

 

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12 minutes ago, morpheous said:

Many times there is a disconnect between the last waypoint in a STAR and the first waypoint on the approach so I usually just connect the 2 but I know that I will be vectored onto the approach so is there a way to tell the FMC that?

Nope. It's hardcoded.

...and there's no reason to add a vector leg. Just switch to HDG SEL. Don't overcomplicate things just to get it into the FMC, or to have a perfect magenta line from DEP to DEST - that's a common simmerism. The FMC is a tool to assist - nothing more.

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If you want to have a visual reference after the last waypoint, enter the point as a fix and draw a bearing. But actually, as Kyle says: don‘t let you be flown by the plane. you are the pilot, fly it!

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5 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

and there's no reason to add a vector leg

It can be handy to throw a discon in there to remind yourself to fly a heading at that point.  Sure, You could use the fix page for that but in the approach phase you may already be using both fix pages for something else.

To put an intentional discon in the legs page just enter any fix that isn’t in your flight plan and then delete it.  You will be left with a discon where you entered the fix.

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On 12/4/2017 at 9:46 AM, scandinavian13 said:

Nope. It's hardcoded.

...and there's no reason to add a vector leg. Just switch to HDG SEL. Don't overcomplicate things just to get it into the FMC, or to have a perfect magenta line from DEP to DEST - that's a common simmerism. The FMC is a tool to assist - nothing more.

So do I just leave the Disconnect in the FMC or join the two points? I understand I will need to fly hdg sel after that point but as the post above says its more just a reminder to myself to hit hdg sel or I can easily end up flying directly to the next waypoint by accident. 

Jim V

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1 hour ago, morpheous said:

So do I just leave the Disconnect in the FMC or join the two points? I understand I will need to fly hdg sel after that point but as the post above says its more just a reminder to myself to hit hdg sel or I can easily end up flying directly to the next waypoint by accident. 

Jim V

Unless there is a transition that you're following that will join the STAR to the approach, leave the disco.

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6 hours ago, Spin737 said:

Unless there is a transition that you're following that will join the STAR to the approach, leave the disco.

Not agree with you i'm afraid ...

A "disco" or "discontinuity" are the five emty boxes in the LEG's page, these must always be "closed".

What OP surely means is the (VECTOR) line in the LEG's page (I refer to the Tutorial 1 - page 37 witch came with the NGX).  There you see a (VECTOR)-entry" witch means the pilots can expect vectors from ATC.  This can be on approach, but also on a SID.  That (VECTOR)-entry gives an infinite magenta line on the ND.  That is the moment for you to switch to "HDG SEL" untill you are vectored to the next waypoint by ATC if you are online, otherwise if you are not online or there is no ATC online, simply "vector" yourself to the next waypoint...

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43 minutes ago, headley said:

Not agree with you i'm afraid ...

A "disco" or "discontinuity" are the five emty boxes in the LEG's page, these must always be "closed".

While it's your own prerogative to disagree, and you're free to operate the aircraft as you please, you're disagreeing with a guy who flies the plane in the real world. I'm not sure you're find many other real world pilots who'd agree with you, either...to include myself.

I would question anyone who uses the word "always" in aviation. That kind of blind acceptance of something is not what I'd call good ADM. What justification can you provide for blindly connecting DISCOs without context, always?

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2 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

While it's your own prerogative to disagree, and you're free to operate the aircraft as you please, you're disagreeing with a guy who flies the plane in the real world. I'm not sure you're find many other real world pilots who'd agree with you, either...to include myself.

I would question anyone who uses the word "always" in aviation. That kind of blind acceptance of something is not what I'd call good ADM. What justification can you provide for blindly connecting DISCOs without context, always?

Oops, it's certainly not my intention to teach real pilots a lesson:blush:.

"always":emu_melk: thought it was the intention to close those disco's.  Now by reading some lecture more closely i must confess that I was too fast with my assessment.

So disregard my last post, lesson learnt.  I'm always open to learn something, in fact i did now...

edit: perhaps a good idea to give RW pilots a kind of badge in their profile so that other readers can better judge the quality of their post ...

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So to clarify things up: that (VECTOR)-thing in some procedures (Sid - Star) we encounter when entering a procedure, is this something build in by Navigraph or is it also existing in the RW?

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1 hour ago, headley said:

 perhaps a good idea to give RW pilots a kind of badge in their profile so that other readers can better judge the quality of their post ...

Ha! The question would be what quality RW would give.

I've flown with 2 airlines on the 737. One closed the disco, one didn't. The one that did relied on the wording "delete unwanted discos," but that airline hated gray areas, so all discos became "unwanted." The other airline was much more laissez faire as long as the plane will go in the right direction, do what you want in the box.

Discos aren't bad. I wouldn't want one in the middle of a transcon, however.

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24 minutes ago, headley said:

Great, thanks for enlightening things a bit ...

As pointed out earlier, sometimes the navdata will have a VECTORS segment and often not.  The reason is simply how the original data is translated by Navigraph into our obsolete sidstar file syntax.  Were we not still using the obsolete format I'm sure this would not be a topic.

Of course I agree with Matt...., the real issue is that you are flying ATC vectors before you get to the discontinuity.  For example, this might be on a downwind where the chart indicates you fly a specific heading or track until receiving vectors to the final approach.  In this case your ATC clearance is literally that heading or vector until further clearance is received, or you lose communications (whereby an entirely new set of rules apply).  In the sim world, not flying with an on line controller, what you do next is decide when to turn base and then to the heading to intercept the final course. Use the approach chart, pick a fix outside the final approach fix (FAF) and fly to it. This will give you time to get lined up on course, on proper descent and in proper configuration before the FAF.  As a beginner, you can copy that fix the the FIX page and put a radial that extends from the fix such that it provides you a guide for a 30 deg intercept for final course.  For example, if final course is 180 deg, then right turn intercept would be 150 deg and you would be putting a 330 deg radial on the fix on the FIX page.  This is just a guide for you to self vector, and after a few times you'll be able to visualize it without having to add the FIX line.

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To clarify, my previous example about inserting a discon would be if ATC modified your clearance and instructed you to fly a heading after a fix, something that often happens coming into ORD.  If a vector already exists in the legs page there would be no need to manually insert a discontinuity.

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Tangent story this isn't directed at anyone so please nobody take offense.

Imagine what would happen in the sim world if the PFD suddenly went blank. How many could actually continue on using VOR's and the analog backup instruments like the old course deviation indicator. I remember the FS98 days copying maps of states out of Rand McNally and using the VOR index provided with the FS98 CD. I would use the map and a protractor to ballpark the course between VORs and use the course deviation indicator to fly across country.

I've noticed now that these sim planes have become more technically advanced simmers are hopelessly relying on the FMC to calculate routes. I could imagine if the screen went blank mid-flight the simmer thinking "we're all dead!"

Please note I am a simmer, I have these tendencies as well, I'm not on a high horse or anything like that.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

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The original question was generated because I was unsure how the FMC would calculate the top of descent if there was a blank DISCO on the legs page, I'm assuming that its assuming the points are connected regardless of the DISCO or not? Appears that way to me. 

Anyways thanks for the comments.

Jim V

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17 hours ago, morpheous said:

The original question was generated because I was unsure how the FMC would calculate the top of descent if there was a blank DISCO on the legs page, I'm assuming that its assuming the points are connected regardless of the DISCO or not? Appears that way to me. 

Anyways thanks for the comments.

Jim V

That is a fair question.  In general, the FMS will calculate the vertical path up to the discontinuity.  In the context of this thread, the disco is at the terminal end of the arrival and in general an arrival will have one or more altitude constraints before the terminal so there is plenty of information available for a vertical path calculation.  There are discos that you want to deal with, such as mid-route or even the occasional arrival that ends in fix ABCD and an approach that has ABCD as an IAF.  Sometimes you need to over write the arrival ABCD over the approach ABCD to close the path.  Regardless, this does not generally create a problem for VNAV.

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One of the most important things to learn about VNAV is when to stop using it.  Once you have complied with the final altitude constraint on the arrival it's typically best to switch to level change and descend as quickly as you can to get the plane down.  Once I'm established on the final approach course I will switch back into VNAV to step down to the glideslope intercept altitude.  Using VNAV while being vectored will often leave you higher than you want to be.

Exceptions exist, such as LAX where the arrival and approach link up to form a continuous path all the way to the runway.

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On 12/7/2017 at 5:28 AM, headley said:

A "disco" or "discontinuity" are the five emty boxes in the LEG's page, these must always be "closed".

Leaving a disco is personal preference and can serve as a reminder. Prematurely closing off a DTW and leaving the aircraft in LNAV may cause a deviation from your clearance. Typically it involves embarrassment as the aircraft turns the wrong direction and the PF frantically engages HDG select to get the airplane turning back in the right direction.:laugh:

Typically if the STAR/SID includes a heading/vector, the FMC will include the vector and the disco can be closed off. The airplane will fly the vector leg in LNAV until the vector is either deleted or you have selected another waypoint to go direct to, etc.

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