PMDG / FSLABS and VR

[Zimmerbz 168]

 I am just curious if anyone is using the FSLA320, PMDG or any other tubeliner in VR.  If so, what is your experience like visually and piloting.  I have never done VR so I have no basis but How I fly seems it would be a little difficult to communicate with ATC, write down instructions and obviously see anything in the non VR scenario (coffee, mouse, controls, etc.).  I am just curious how others flying this plane use it if any use it at all.  I'd love to try it out but I don't think that would be an option without buying a bunch of gear.  I'm sure things will improve in the future but I wanted to see what people are experiencing now.

[TravelRunner404 596]

There isn't much consensus right now on VR. Some people only fly VR and love it, but most don't it seems.  People seem to agree that it has huge potential and is probably the future of flight simming, but it's still not ready for prime time.

I have tried Oculus Rift and my regular set up is a 55inch 4k TV.  The first time I put on VR I loved it but the novelty started to wear off within a day or two.  The initial immersion and feeling of being in the cockpit was cool, however; the screen door effect, average performance, and poor scenery eventually made me not care for it much.  From what I read this is the normal arc with the VR experience.  The 4k 55inch TV is more comfortable for me right now.

I would be hard-pressed to recommend making the investment in VR.  But I will say I hope the technology aggressively advances b/c if they get it right it will be a lot of fun.

 

[dmarques69 316]

The main problem with airliners in VR (from my experience) besides performance is handling the mcdu/fmc, using atc can be easly done using MCE for example, you can put your FO handling the comms, nevertheless the feeling of being in that cockpit is awesome.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Zimmerbz said:

 I am just curious if anyone is using the FSLA320, PMDG or any other tubeliner in VR.  If so, what is your experience like visually and piloting.  I have never done VR so I have no basis but How I fly seems it would be a little difficult to communicate with ATC, write down instructions and obviously see anything in the non VR scenario (coffee, mouse, controls, etc.).  I am just curious how others flying this plane use it if any use it at all.  I'd love to try it out but I don't think that would be an option without buying a bunch of gear.  I'm sure things will improve in the future but I wanted to see what people are experiencing now.

Let me start by saying that I used VR in Aerofly FS 2, which is FAR better than P3D in VR, but anyway, I can share my VR experience with the airliners in that sim.

A problem I indeed ran into is that you are cut off from the real world so writing down instructions is a no go drinking coffee too. With the latest version of the Oculus software you can however call up other windows within the VR world but I think that needs some refinement and specific software to become really useful. I did never really like it though how I was 'out of this world' with the Rift on my head. Yes, obviously you WANT to be out of this world and totally immersed into the VR world but it has its disadvantages.

Main problem however is what TravelRunner404 already posted: the low resolution and screendoor effect. (I did not have problems with poor performance thanks to Aerofly FS 2. ) The immersion is indeed awesome but the fact that you can't really see an airport until you are there is becoming quite annoying after a while. Another problem is that specially in airliners it can be pretty hard to read the text on gauges, screens buttons, etc. Performing all the needed tasks however, clicking buttons etc., wasn't a problem at all in Aerofly FS 2 thanks to the GREAT mouse support. Now AFS2 doesn't have FMS's yet but if it had it would be no problem to use it.

Now I only tried VR in P3D once and imho it was horrible. Bad performance, bad mouse control, it just was bad all over. So if you want to use it for P3D alone I'd say: WAIT until high res devices are here (in a few years maybe) and CPU's can run at 8 Ghz.  Aerofly FS 2 however is quite enjoyable in VR although for me only for a quick flight every now and then. It will never become my main sim until it has more features. But apart from that VR isn't ready yet for prime time. It's a nice gadget but that's it.

Anyway, since you want to use the FSLA320 and PMDG I'd say: don't waste your money on VR. Those plane perform bad already in 2D: it will be even worse in VR.

EDIT

Three other drawbacks:

1. the heavy device on your head all the time... not nice, specially not for longer flights.

2. the scenery which you get to see in real life size in VR. Now perhaps those card box houses may look nice on a 2D screen but seeing them as big as a real life house makes it very obvious how fake a lot of sim objects still are. The same goes for the ground textures. Those aren't meant to be blown up to real life size.

3. also due to point 2: although VR is very immersive I never had the idea I was actually there: I always had the idea I was actually in a computer sim. I never ever felt the fear I would definitely feel whenever I had to fly a real plane on my own. Again, it is great, specially at a certain altitude, but it's never real, also due to the quality of current scenery.

[GCBraun 2,392]

The PMDG planes perform great in VR. The FSLabs is indeed very heavy, but I can still run it ok. The only thing that I cannot do with the FSLabs is to pin charts and other windows into the 3D cockpit, something that is totally doable with the PMDG`s.

As for the platforms, XP11 is currently my number 1 choice, considering that it has a good VR implementation (with touch controls support) and great add-on aircraft. I also use P3D`s native VR quite a lot and have usually no performance problems (just with the FSLabs, as described above). As for Aerofly, unfortunately there are no decent airplanes for it, so I am not using it at the moment.

[guenseli 1,591]

I'm sure, that in future, VR will be superseded by AR (augmented reality, e.g. Hololens - EDIT sth. a bit flight related, click).

However that will probably need 10 or 15 years.

 

But imagine, you have your hardware, Yoke, Joystick, etc. in front of you and at the end of your desk the cockpit will start to "materialize", including the view out of the windows. Fingertracking will enable that you could switch and dial all knobs.

In that way you can have different cockpits, 747, 777, little GA, warbirds etc.

Bright future!

 

but that is now a bit oof topic, sorry ....

[ryebred2 23]

I use the PMDG 737, Majestic Dash 8, and TFDI 717 in VR all the time. I have a pretty high end computer so I use the Oculus Tray tool to set the super sampling to 1.5. This makes things much easier to read in the cockpit and I have no trouble seeing airports from further away. I mostly kept the graphics options similar to what I had in 2d but I did turn all traffic off. With traffic on, for me, it gets a little stuttery when taxing at large airports.

 

With native P3D VR, it is easy to switch from VR back to 2D so once I get comfortable in cruise I usually turn it back to 2D and take the Oculus RIft headset off. Then I do something else to occupy my time until I get close to the Top of Decent and turn VR back on.

 

Programming the FMC in VR with the super sampling on is not too bad. I can read everything without having to lean too close. The only issue is that your mouse pointer is synced to both your mouse and your head. As long as you keep your head still, you can move your mouse around but if your head moves the mouse resets to follow your head. This does mean you have to keep your head unnaturally still sometimes while you are programming the FMC or dialing in altitudes or things like that. I am curious to try Leap Motion though as an add on to the rift to track my hands.  https://www.leapmotion.com

[DrumsArt 270]

Holodeck or nothing !

Regards,

[kdfw__ 542]

just started using the rift, both fsl320 and 744 perform fine.  the resolution isn't 4k so i can dial back scenery a tick or two without really noticing it.  with the oculus tray setting supersampling to 1.5 or so, image quality is quite good, can see the panel and ground features.  

and as mentioned above, it's not an all or nothing proposition--i'll setup flights on the 4k screen with trackir, then use the rift for taxi/takeoff, back to the 2d screen, jump back on the rift for sight seeing, then on appr/final/taxi later on.   only issue is fsl will ctd jumping into p3dv4 with native vr so until this bug is fixed by lm (according to fsl), the work around is load some default plane and activate vr, then switch planes to the a320.  

but fs using vr is sublime.  it's as one is sitting in the actual flight deck with stereo imaging and immersion.  flying ga planes are fun again, strike fighters fly faster (accentuated sense of speed), and helicopters are amazing fun to fly as distance/height are now perceptible in 3d space.   

hw will continue to evolve (requiring more processing power), exciting times for flight simming.  if one has the hw to run p3dv4 well right now, it's a great time to jump into vr.

  

  

 

 

 

[WebMaximus 372]

Here's a thread I started after trying out VR using a pair of Oculus Rift with the PMDG NGX for the first time.

 

[BrettT 63]

I don't have any of the PMDG or FSL offerings but I have used the Majestic Q400 and the A2A Constellation with the Vive.  I find them both quite satisfying and immersive and they both perform pretty good with Flying Inside.  For the Q400 I will typically use the pop up windows with Flying Inside when programming the flight and sometimes to get a better view of the finer lettering on the MFDs.  I am hoping the Vive pro makes it a little bit clearer.  It is not that bad now but it could be better and the extra pixels is probably all that is needed to avoid leaning in at all.  Of course the Q400 has a HUD so that is a nice addition and eliminates most of the need of using the pop up windows during the flight.  

For the Constellation, VR works wonderfully and I am able to move from Pilot to Co-pilot to Engineer and perform all of the functions.  Because everything is analog and there are no digital displays, it is quite easy to monitor and tend to things.  One nice thing with the VR is the landings are usually quite smooth as it is very easy to judge your height with actual depth perception.  Another nice feature of flying inside is that you can bring in a PDF of your approach plate (along with SIDS, STARS, airport diagram) and put them right where the yoke would be.  If you are clever, you could even make a single PDF of what you planned on using for that flight and just scroll through the one that you needed for that part of the flight.

I have become very disenchanted with the default ATC so what I typically do now is treat each flight like it is VFR with flight following and then just follow the IFR rules on my own (when I choose to fly IFR) 

[Lenny777 299]

Aerofly FS2 is the best use of VR right now. Very nice. The clarity of the cockpits, manipulation of the buttons and dials is better than any implementation in the other existing sims. 

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Zimmerbz said:

If so, what is your experience like visually and piloting.

Well, one thing is clear by now: you have to see it for yourself!  Some say the graphics are good (enough) and other say they are bad so... it's all in the eye of the beholder. Some can see the airport from miles away and some only see pixels in the distance. It all depends on which planes you fly and what's important to you. In the end the ONLY way to really find out if VR is something for you is to give it a try... which obviously can be problematic. Not only because you have to find someone or a shop where you can try VR in a flightsim but also because the first try usually is great and awesome and only after using it for a while you'll really know if it's something for you or not.

9 hours ago, ryebred2 said:

The only issue is that your mouse pointer is synced to both your mouse and your head. As long as you keep your head still, you can move your mouse around but if your head moves the mouse resets to follow your head.

That's the great thing about Aerofly FS 2 mouse support: the mouse pointer is INSIDE and part of the VR 3D environment and stays there until you move it. So you can point the mouse at a rotary knob and then turn it even when looking away and the knob and mouse are completely put of sight! Very nice. And as said, performance in VR is through the roof: even with ALL possible options on fps easily stays above the desired 90 fps. Even with super sampling (which you can set within in the sim itself) at 2.0. It's a shame the rest of the sim is lacking so much.

[WebMaximus 372]

For the mouse pointer issue moving with your head, that doesn't happen if you're using FlyInside.

[Andreas Stangenes 1,628]

19 hours ago, Zimmerbz said:

 I am just curious if anyone is using the FSLA320, PMDG or any other tubeliner in VR.  If so, what is your experience like visually and piloting.  I have never done VR so I have no basis but How I fly seems it would be a little difficult to communicate with ATC, write down instructions and obviously see anything in the non VR scenario (coffee, mouse, controls, etc.).  I am just curious how others flying this plane use it if any use it at all.  I'd love to try it out but I don't think that would be an option without buying a bunch of gear.  I'm sure things will improve in the future but I wanted to see what people are experiencing now.

My favorite aircraft to fly in VR are the addons from PMDG and aerosoft. I also have some smaller GA planes from A2A that I'm happy with (though eventhough they are smaller planes they are not as optimized when it comes to framerates as let's say the 747, 777 (pmdg) or a320 (aerosoft)). I only fly in VR, and I cannot find any joy in flying pancake any more. I love the immersion I get from VR. I own a HTC Vive, and I absolutely love it. 

I use it in combination with a view-manager addon (OPUS FSI). For me and the way I fly it is critically important for comfortable flying in VR. I have a Razer gaming mouse with 7 thumb buttons and 5 buttons on top giving me ample realestate to bind my views to. Unfortunately things like Chaseplane or Ezdok v2 don't work very well with FlyInside, but I'm really hoping they get on the bus and do something about the VR compatability issues. 

What I normally do, practically, is to do my pre-flight planning out of VR (using various web pages, weather, weight and fuel planning, route etc). I then come into the VR cockpit and do everything I normally would. I use my views to easily get around the cockpit to get a good look at things like gauges, FMC/GPS-unit, overhead panel, pedestal etc, and switch frequently between them. I can pop "outside" the airplane and check it from the outside as well, both when it's on the ground and in the air. When I'm at cruise and I want to leave the enroute segment to the automation, I just set my headset down on my desk (I always put it down on the same spot) and i have a view that is tailored for that view that shows me the critical gauges on my pc monitor. In that way I can just glance over to my pc screen when im in the couch or otherwise going about my business in real life, and I can check if altitude, speed and attitude are normal. I do an estimation of when I need to be back in the cockpit for the descent phase, and return to VR in time for that. 

It's pretty simple, increadibly immersive and the only way to fly if you ask me :) People who use VR without a view management system don't know what they are missing. As I said, Opus FSI is the only company that delivers this as of today.