Nemo

4.3 - Dynamic Lighting & SSAA

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The performance of DL/SSAA is absolutely better on my system. I made a full uninstall-reinstall which took me half a day to have all my add-ons in place again. Not too bad, isn't it?  Then I tested my PMDG 747 at FB KSFO (and FTX SCA) and FT YSSY (and FTX AUS). Frames were set to unlimited.

With HDR on, 4xSSAA (!), 8xAF and moderate settings (adapted for night where you need no cloud shadows etc. ...) and with UTL active,  I could reach 23 fps at KSFO (28R) and 20 fps at YSSY (34L) - Nearly stutter free and no shimmering ... IMO, it is a big step forward, compared to my former install (4.2) where I only could get 12-15 fps with comparable settings.

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Nemo,

What screen resolution do you have?

Regards,
Simbol

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7 minutes ago, simbol said:

Nemo,

What screen resolution do you have?

Regards,
Simbol

Look at his sig 😉

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2 minutes ago, JoeFackel said:

Look at his sig 😉

I did it looks like 4K, I just want to confirm he is actually playing P3D at 4K because if he is there is no point in using SSAA anti aliasing.

He is taxing his system with Super Sampling when it is absolutely unnecessary.

Regards,
Simbol

 

 

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4 minutes ago, simbol said:

He is taxing his system with Super Sampling when it is absolutely unnecessary.

If he does he's for sure not the only one. Saw several others using SSAA on 4K. I don't wonder anymore, there are also people believing in homeopathy and snake oil 🤩

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1 minute ago, simbol said:

I did it looks like 4K, I just want to confirm he is actually playing P3D at 4K because if he is there is no point in using SSAA anti aliasing.

He is taxing his system with Super Sampling when it is absolutely unnecessary.

Regards,
Simbol

 

 

Acutally there is. I am also on 4k but get shimmering when using only MSAA.
It gets even worse at night. So 4xSSAA is the key at the moment.  

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Posted (edited)

I think I am going to take this opportunity to explain why you don't need xSSAA if you already have a 4K screen:

SSAA, or Super-Sample Anti-Aliasing is a brute force method of anti-aliasing. It results in the best image quality but comes at a tremendous resource cost. SSAA works by rendering the scene at a higher resolution, 2x SSAA renders the scene at twice the resolution along each axis (4x the pixel count), 4x SSAA renders the scene at four times the resolution along each axis (16x the pixel) count, and 8x SSAA renders the scene at eight times the resolution along each axis (64x the pixel count). The final image is produced by downsampling the massive source image using an averaging filter. This acts as a low pass filter which removes the high frequency components that caused the jaggedness.

So if you are running at P3D 4K and use 4xSSAA in reality you are rendering at each frame per second a scene with a resolution of 13760x5760  [(3440x1440) x 4].

If you run any video game already at 4K you don't need to use any anti aliasing technique, the human eye already will not notice any difference, this video might help to explain it better:

Your display screen resolution at 4K already takes care of the pixelation in hence the name Ultra High Definition (UHD), so software algorithms to correct pixelation are unnecessary and by removing them you will still have an amazing resolution experience and increase the simulation performance.

All the best,

Simbol

Edited by simbol
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Posted (edited)

Thanks for your comments, The Screen Resolution is what is sometiomes called 3K. I'd like to add that with my former install (4.2) and the same hardware, I could not get acceptable visuals with AA lower than 4xSSAA. There was too much shimmering at night. Now, with 4xSSAA I see no shimmering at all and I have a much better performance. I agree, I have not yet tested other AA settings, but I will do later this day.

Edited by Nemo

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4 minutes ago, simbol said:

I think I am going to take this opportunity to explain why you don't need xSSAA if you already have a 4K screen:

SSAA, or Super-Sample Anti-Aliasing is a brute force method of anti-aliasing. It results in the best image quality but comes at a tremendous resource cost. SSAA works by rendering the scene at a higher resolution, 2x SSAA renders the scene at twice the resolution along each axis (4x the pixel count), 4x SSAA renders the scene at four times the resolution along each axis (16x the pixel) count, and 8x SSAA renders the scene at eight times the resolution along each axis (64x the pixel count). The final image is produced by downsampling the massive source image using an averaging filter. This acts as a low pass filter which removes the high frequency components that caused the jaggedness.

So if you are running at P3D 4K and use 4xSSAA in reality you are rendering at each frame per second a scene with a resolution of 13760x5760  [(3440x1440) x 4].

If you run any video game already at 4K you don't need to use any anti aliasing technique, the human eye already will not notice any difference, this video might help to explain it better:

Your display screen resolution at 4K already takes care of the pixelation in hence the name Ultra High Definition (UHD), so software algorithms to correct pixelation are unnecessary and by removing them you will still have an amazing resolution experience and increase the simulation performance.

All the best,

Simbol

Thank you for the detailled explanation. You're right there is no reason to use SSAA in terms of aliasing. Visually you can't see a difference in using MSAA and SSAA in terms of jaged edges. How ever there is a huge difference in shimmering textures.
Tried JustSim LTAI last night. With MSAA the whole terminal was shimmering. With SSAA sharp and crisp without ants on the walls 🙂

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Just now, onurair said:

Thank you for the detailled explanation. You're right there is no reason to use SSAA in terms of aliasing. Visually you can't see a difference in using MSAA and SSAA in terms of jaged edges. How ever there is a huge difference in shimmering textures.
Tried JustSim LTAI last night. With MSAA the whole terminal was shimmering. With SSAA sharp and crisp without ants on the walls 🙂

The source of the shimmering is what needs to be addressed, you are just hiding it by using SSAA. What is happening is that the scene is being super sampled and then down sampled so you don't see the shimmering but it is still there.

The right question is why you get shimmering?, it could be because textures are faulty (not properly developed), missing mipmaps, some settings using Nvidia inspector or faulty video drivers which cause the symptoms that you are describing.

I have a 4K Laptop and I don't experience any shimmering whatsoever when I am testing my products under 4K.

All the best,
Simbol

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24 minutes ago, simbol said:

I think I am going to take this opportunity to explain why you don't need xSSAA if you already have a 4K screen

Good old Linus.  

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, simbol said:

The source of the shimmering is what needs to be addressed, you are just hiding it by using SSAA. What is happening is that the scene is being super sampled and then down sampled so you don't see the shimmering but it is still there.

The right question is why you get shimmering?, it could be because textures are faulty (not properly developed), missing mipmaps, some settings using Nvidia inspector or faulty video drivers which cause the symptoms that you are describing.

I have a 4K Laptop and I don't experience any shimmering whatsoever when I am testing my products under 4K.

All the best,
Simbol

You are probably right and SSAA covers the the shimmering only. But shimmering has been reported very often in context with AA/DL here in these forums. So it is a real problem. You say you don't have it on your 4K Notebook screen. Maybe the shimmering problem has much more to do with the size of the screen (and actually the density of pixels)?

Edited by Nemo

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10 minutes ago, Nemo said:

You say you don't have it on your 4K Notebook screen. Maybe the shimmering problem has much more to do with the size of the screen (and actually the density of pixels)?

I guess this is related. I always suffered from shimmering on my previous FullHD 23" monitor, (96ppi) now with the 27" 1440p monitor (109ppi), the shimmering is not so obvious anymore. Seems that this little increase in pixel density already reduced the recognition of shimmering to a certain extend.

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30 minutes ago, AnkH said:

I guess this is related. I always suffered from shimmering on my previous FullHD 23" monitor, (96ppi) now with the 27" 1440p monitor (109ppi), the shimmering is not so obvious anymore. Seems that this little increase in pixel density already reduced the recognition of shimmering to a certain extend.

My Laptop 4k screen is 17" inches.

Maybe certain screens are prune than others.

S.

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, simbol said:

have a 4K Laptop and I don't experience any shimmering whatsoever when I am testing my products under 4K. 

All the best,
Simbol

What works for a 4K laptop is not going to work for a big 4K TV/monitor.

A 4K 65" screen has a pixel density about the same as a 27" 1080p so it will need the same level of AA as that 1080 screen. Nobody uses SSAA for the fun of it but because it is necessary. My 4K 65" needs SSAA to get rid of the jaggies, so I use it.

gb.

Edited by gboz
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1 hour ago, onurair said:

Acutally there is. I am also on 4k but get shimmering when using only MSAA.
It gets even worse at night. So 4xSSAA is the key at the moment.  

i have the same.  use 4x ssaa because it shimmers with only 8x msas

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2 minutes ago, gboz said:

What works for a 4K laptop is not going to work for a big 4K TV/monitor.

A 4K 65" screen has a pixel density about the same as a 27" 1080p so it will need the same level of AA as that 1080 screen. Nobody uses SSAA for the fun of it but because it is necessary. My 4K 65" needs SSAA to get rid of the jaggies, so I use it.

gb.

Fair enough but you have a real reason for it.. I mean 65" inches is huge! my explanation is aiming at users with 20", 24", 27" and even 32" inches screens that are already on 4K and the usage of SSAA is pointless given the amount of performance tax you put on the system.

Regards,

S.

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mine is 32 inch with g-sync and it shimmers like crazy 😞

 

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so i guess now i know better why im using 8xSGSS on my 1366X768 screen 😂

btw, my screen works perfectly with my PlayStation4 and it shows 1080..i dont know why when im connecting it with HDMI to the PC it all looks fuzzy and blurry to hell, so im using DP(GPU side) to VGA (TV side) and the image much better, but lower resolution it support.. can someone know what can be the issue? 

i thought if i get 4K screen i will say goodbye to the SGSS but now you guys confused me totally 😶

 

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2 hours ago, simbol said:

I think I am going to take this opportunity to explain why you don't need xSSAA if you already have a 4K screen (...)

 

It's a bit more complex than that. The "shimmering" that people see in the simulator usually comes not from geometry, but from the textures. Things like sharp, contrasting panel lines, high resolution labels, signs and gauges, etc. The cause is partially because in the simulators we use much higher texture density than in other games, partially because of the way P3D handles textures, partially because of old developer habits from FSX. Mipmapping the textures solves most of the "shimmering" effect, but in FSX it caused textures to look extremely blurry in many situations, and it wasn't possible to use textures bigger than 1024x1024 with mipmaps without config edits. That's why many addons are shipped without mipmapped textures. 

MSAA does not "see" textures, only geometry edges, so no matter how high you set the AA, it won't fix the shimmering. The modern post-processing AA like FXAA reduces shimmering, but noticeably reduces image quality. SSAA offers the best image quality, no matter the resolution, but at a high performance cost. 

Besides, it's also a matter of personal preference. Like screen tearing due to lack of Vsync, some people barely notice it, while other people can't stand it. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, simbol said:

My Laptop 4k screen is 17" Inches.

You see, this results in a whopping pixeldensity of 260ppi. No wonder you hardly see any shimmering even without AA.

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4XSSAA with DL brings my sim down to its knees. I get about 10-15fps at KSEA. I just use 8xMSAA. I'm also running on a 55" 4K TV as well.

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3 hours ago, simbol said:

My Laptop 4k screen is 17" inches.

Maybe certain screens are prune than others.

S.

So on my 4k 55in TV with Orbx night lights I get shimmering when  they are in the dost but not up close. You saying that even in the distance you don't get shimmering with Orbx night lights? 

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, B777ER said:

So on my 4k 55in TV with Orbx night lights I get shimmering when  they are in the dost but not up close. You saying that even in the distance you don't get shimmering with Orbx night lights? 

Correct, but as others have pointed out it seems to be dependant of the overall screen size.

Yours is quite large.

S.

Edited by simbol
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38 minutes ago, B777ER said:

So on my 4k 55in TV with Orbx night lights I get shimmering when  they are in the dost but not up close.

If pixel density plays a role, the explanation is easy. With 4K on 55in, you only get 80ppi, that's less than FullHD on a 23in screen.

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