SIDs and STARs: yes or no

[Guest]

I am sure this has been discussed before but after checking out flights on Flightradar24 for a while it (again) occured to me that in real life no one seems to fly SIDs or STARs. It's almost all straight out, make a turn and on you go, or all straight in, depending on where you are coming from. Not once could I find and recognize a SID or STAR on FlightRadar24.

When I fly in P3D with ProATC in Norway I 'have' to fly each and every SID and STAR from A to Z, often making odd detours which take a lot of time. Since I do domestic flights flying those SIDs and STARs sometimes seem to take more time than the actual flight itself. Quite often I am almost there but then I have to fly in a complete different direction, following arcs and what not until I can finally approach.

It seems most simmers are completely into flying entire SIDs and STARs and checking charts and following procedures... while no one seems to care in real life... Why do we simmers do this?

Anyway, I was wondering if it is possible to fly in a more realistic way because visiting every SID and STAR waypoint on every flight doesn't seem to be realistic. Can this be done with ProATC? Can this be done with ANY ATC addon...? What are your thoughts about the current use of SIDs and STARs in P3D (or any other flightsim)?

[Rocky_53 1,579]

Jeroen, I have had this conversation in depth with a friend of mine, he is an ardent simmer but he was also an air traffic controller. He has told me that in fact in real life pilots do not often fly SIDS and STARS, it is far more common for them to fly vectors. So there you go, all us simmers who get hell bent on SIDS and STARS are not really following real life procedures! 

Edited September 16, 2018 by Rockliffe

[skelsey 765]

Hi Jeroen,

It depends a lot on the available ATC facilities. Certainly in the UK, you would be assigned a SID/STAR but it would be very rare to fly the full procedure as often vectors can enable a faster climb etc (though strictly speaking in the UK ATC are not meant to take aircraft off the SID below 4000ft due to noise concerns as the SIDs reflect noise preferential routes).

In places where there is no radar of course one would generally expect to fly full procedures.

[downscc 1,327]

Ditto what Simon said, it depends on the facility.  In the US it depends on the facility.  Departures out of Chicago are always vectors, but out of Dallas you will see everyone on SIDs.  Dallas and many other locations that have the freedom to do so are using RNAV based procedures to decrease the workload on ATC and increase the traffic handling abilities.  If you observe the ground tracks of aircraft at KDFW, KLAX, KDEN etc you will see how nicely everyone lines up along the route of a terminal procedure.

[DavidP 1,411]

I agree with Simon and Dan. There is no "one size fits all". Here in Australia SIDS/STARS will be assigned - some may be flown in full, others could be interrupted by some factor and then resumed or discontinued, traffic flows may require vectors to be used, or may allow more direct routings. Same can be said for approaches - even here, with our generally more benign weather compared to our northern hemisphere friends, some airports with still use an ILS approach even in VMC, while others will offer visual separation of even airline traffic. There is no black and white.

[snpower 16]

Probably not a direct answer to your question but for some background info:

I can tell you that  I will (almost) always file a SID/STAR when they are available, usually based on the expected ATC routing that one can view in FltPlan.com. The expected routing is so dependable that one can pre-load it into the FMS or GPS and rarely have to make any changes when picking up the actual IFR clearance. Conversely, if you choose to ignore it... plan on a re-route before you start engines.

On departure you tend to fly to the first fix on the SID and then typically end up on a vector towards your en-route segment, and more often than not you are cleared to a higher altitude so soon after departure that published crossing restrictions rarely come into play.  As for STARs... I seem to fly those to their conclusion unless it is VFR and the traffic volume is pretty low.

 

Edited September 16, 2018 by snpower

[charlie130 196]

2 hours ago, J van E said:

I am sure this has been discussed before but after checking out flights on Flightradar24 for a while it (again) occured to me that in real life no one seems to fly SIDs or STARs. It's almost all straight out, make a turn and on you go, or all straight in, depending on where you are coming from. Not once could I find and recognize a SID or STAR on FlightRadar24.

When I fly in P3D with ProATC in Norway I 'have' to fly each and every SID and STAR from A to Z, often making odd detours which take a lot of time. Since I do domestic flights flying those SIDs and STARs sometimes seem to take more time than the actual flight itself. Quite often I am almost there but then I have to fly in a complete different direction, following arcs and what not until I can finally approach.

It seems most simmers are completely into flying entire SIDs and STARs and checking charts and following procedures... while no one seems to care in real life... Why do we simmers do this?

Anyway, I was wondering if it is possible to fly in a more realistic way because visiting every SID and STAR waypoint on every flight doesn't seem to be realistic. Can this be done with ProATC? Can this be done with ANY ATC addon...? What are your thoughts about the current use of SIDs and STARs in P3D (or any other flightsim)?

Re the question of ATC add ons. I have never used Pro ATC, so don't know if it does vectors.

Good old Radar Contact v4 has the option to fly SID/STAR/IAP or have the controller give you vectors for departure and/or approaches. Selecting "alt restrictions" let's  you fly your SID, you then tell RC4 when your out of the SID and back on course. Selecting no alt restrictions, you will get vectors. You can even request a speed relief, so  you can blast off at warp speed!

On approach, RC4 will automatically give you vectors, unless you tell it you want IAP, then you just fly your STAR. It's generally not bad, considering it's age. If you switch over to the "meatwater" voice pack, the ATC speeds up to a more realistic speed of speech. The original voices were rather slow!

The thing I like about it is that it recognises my UT Live traffic and does a reasonable job of suspending disbelief!😉

Regards.

David

Edited September 16, 2018 by charlie130
Typo

[Dave_YVR 973]

 Most flightplans are filed with a SID and STAR, but they are then removed during processing in the IFR units. SID's and STAR's are operationally assigned by ATC depending on weather and runways in use etc. 

Edited September 16, 2018 by Dave_YVR

[edpatino 1,964]

2 hours ago, charlie130 said:

Re the question of ATC add ons. I have never used Pro ATC, so don't know if it does vectors

Yes, it does. I have it, and like it very much. Also, very friendly and simple to use.

Cheers, Ed

 

[Bobsk8 12,732]

3 hours ago, charlie130 said:

Re the question of ATC add ons. I have never used Pro ATC, so don't know if it does vectors.

Good old Radar Contact v4 has the option to fly SID/STAR/IAP or have the controller give you vectors for departure and/or approaches. Selecting "alt restrictions" let's  you fly your SID, you then tell RC4 when your out of the SID and back on course. Selecting no alt restrictions, you will get vectors. You can even request a speed relief, so  you can blast off at warp speed!

On approach, RC4 will automatically give you vectors, unless you tell it you want IAP, then you just fly your STAR. It's generally not bad, considering it's age. If you switch over to the "meatwater" voice pack, the ATC speeds up to a more realistic speed of speech. The original voices were rather slow!

The thing I like about it is that it recognises my UT Live traffic and does a reasonable job of suspending disbelief!😉

Regards.

David

PF3 allows you to either select a Sid or Star, and if you don't it will give you vectors, you can also Fly a Sid, and on approach ask ATC for Vectors to the runway, if you want to eliminate part of the star. In Mountainous terrain, I usually select a Star if it is available for terrain clearance. 

[ahsmatt7 1,199]

Ill have a go at this question. I have been in the airlines for 4 years now both based out of IAH and out of ORD during said 4 years. 

At major airports, if a SID or STAR is in our clearance, we fly them....about 90% of the time. At smaller airports, the same statistic applies. However, I would say that about 40% of the time the ENTIRE SID is flown because usually, ATC can give you shortcuts well before you ever get to the end of the SID. As for STARs, we usually fly the entire STAR with maybe 1 or 2 fixes taken out at the very end of it. ATC usually starts vectoring us for approaches at that point. 

With RNAV departures/arrivals, we are usually kept on the SID/ STARs a lot longer because it helps ATC with lateral and vertical separation. (Its all built into said SID/STARs) 

With standard SID/STARs, (Non RNAV or Radar vectored) you may see ATC do interesting things with airplanes because they may need to separate them in one way or another. 

 

Specifically in ORD. The only departure is the ORD3 departure. Its simply runway heading or assigned heading up to 5000 ft with a couple crossing restrictions that are based off DME rings around the airport. Once we get handed off to TRACON, we get vectored until ATC can clear us to our first initial fix. This first fix is also our last fix of the SID. Said fix actually puts us on assigned tracks that the ARTCC uses to meter and separate traffic outbound from the airport. 

As for STARs into ORD. We always fly them. I would say about 70% of the time, Chicago Center will give us a direct to clearance to a fix later down the arrival but we then fly said arrivals into ORD.

Long story short, file and fly the SID/STARs in the sim and vector yourself as your see fit.

[SAS443 1,723]

8 hours ago, J van E said:

seems most simmers are completely into flying entire SIDs and STARs and checking charts and following procedures... while no one seems to care in real life... Why do we simmers do this? 

Sometime it helps use common sense and question why you fly the whole high density arrival profile into EDDF (for example) when there is no traffic, ofc atc will vector you to proximity of the platform altitude fix.

BUT many SID /STAR are designed with multiple purposes in mind (safeguard noise abatement, protect against other traffic- even their missed approaches, fuel efficiency). And since many arrival clearances are issued as " descend via STAR to XXXX ft" , and are designed as CDA's you should have the charts ready and be mentally prepared how to fly the assigned arrival (which explained by other posters quickly can be botched by ATC as you progress).

I Guess one answer to you would be "fly online" but most times controllers are not staffed where you really want to fly. 🙂

[kiek 1,215]

10 hours ago, J van E said:

Not once could I find and recognize a SID or STAR on FlightRadar24.

Well I don't know where you looked, at what time of the day and for how long, but that is certainly not true for major airports with parallel runways such as EHAM, EGLL and EDDF.

Have a look at the pilots eye movies of real flights that  you can find at you tube.

Or give PSXseeconTraffic+ RealTraffic a try and you will see real aircraft fly in your Sim.

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by kiek

[Guest]

I listen to LiveATC.net during most of my flights and pending locations, SIDs/STARs are almost meaningless, it's usually about weather, traffic density, TFRs, and saving fuel/money.  I believe the same question came up with Mentor pilot and Jeff N.'s YouTube chat/shows and they indicated certainly not the "norm" in the flights they do.

Cheers, Rob.

[kiek 1,215]

24 minutes ago, Rob Ainscough said:

I listen to LiveATC.net during most of my flights and pending locations, SIDs/STARs are almost meaningless

The world is much bigger then your back yard 🙂

Cheers

nico