10 hours ago, J van E said:

Anyway, I was wondering if it is possible to fly in a more realistic way because visiting every SID and STAR waypoint on every flight doesn't seem to be realistic. ... Can this be done with ANY ATC addon...? 

PF3.

You can be vectored, fly complete SIDs and STARs or only parts of them. You can set up PF3 for what exactly you want to fly for each flight. Or you can have the free addon SimRandomizer (which works best with Multi Crew Experience but can also be used without it) make a random choice for you according to a preset you created for a specific airport or a type of airport. You can fly into the same airport several times and every flight will be different, for example with different shortcurts / directs within the STAR - like in the real world.

Be aware that PF3 does not know by itself about SIDs and STARs or shortcuts / directs. It takes some effort to set it up the way you want, but it is just a minor part of a thorough flightplanning if you've done it a few times. What some consider a deficiency of PF3 plays out its advantages when you want to fly procedures that are totally realistic for a specific airport.

Edited September 17, 20187 yr by RALF9636

- double post -

Edited September 17, 20187 yr by RALF9636

54 minutes ago, kiek said:

The world is much bigger then your back yard

Hence his question...

1 hour ago, kiek said:

Well I don't know where you looked, at what time of the day and for how long, but that is certainly not true for major airports with parallel runways such as EHAM, EGLL and EDDF.

Have a look at the pilots eye movies of real flights that  you can find at you tube.

Or give PSXseeconTraffic+ RealTraffic a try and you will see real aircraft fly in your Sim.

 

+1

At EHAM and EDDF they do fly STARS and SIDS/Transitions.

 

1 hour ago, kiek said:

The world is much bigger then your back yard 🙂

Cheers

nico

Well said. I wish these radio djs and IT contractors would stick to their day jobs.  I could write a 4 page post about this topic from my experience of filing flightplans worldwide over the last 10 years with notams,weather, various airway closures, sid and star restrictions, air space closure, military exercises, jetbans, curfews, noise restrictions, radio coverage restrictions,aircraft dmi and mels, dcn permit restrictions, equipment restrictions, traffic rights, slots, fourth freedom rights, fifth freedom rights, historical slots, cabotage, NRP, cdr, tma, Russia routings, china routings, mid East routings, entry / entry points... Just to name a few 

In the real world you don't just file a plan and off you go, it's incredibly complex and in the euro control area even more so as you have 35 countries all in a tight area the size of the USA each with the above restrictions.  

In work it can sometimes take nearly 2 hours to get a plan correct using all of the above. Trust me I know we had a nightmare issue with one last night it took nearly 2 hours to fix and get a CID number for it. 

Spotters man.  Jeez

Edited September 17, 20187 yr by tooting

Speaking as someone who lives close to Manchester (EGCC) the first part of the SID is definitely flown. Westerly departures from 23L/R require a right turn soon after take-off to avoid overflying the town of Knutsford. Woe betide any pilot who broke that rule!

But I'm sure the rules are relaxed later in the SID especially in regard to altitude. As far as STARs are concerned I assume they will fly them until otherwise instructed by ATC which will always be the case.

Thanks for all the interesting answers! I think what I need (and what doesn't exist 😉 ) is an ATC addon that decides by itself if vectors are better/needed or not. As it is now I as a pilot have to decide what to do, fly a SID or STAR or not. Of course I can ask in ProATC for a direct and take care of things myself but it's a shame there is no addon that does ATC a bit more realistic. it's quite black and white by default. 

Anyway, I mainly fly in Norway and over there I just can't find a plane that flies a SID or STAR. Clearly it indeed depends on where you fly. Whenever I fly into Oslo I have to fly a rather complicated STAR but I just never see that done on FlightRadar24. The routes themselves also look pretty straight, without additional waypoints. 

I think I will simply take matters into my own hands. 😉 I will fly with ProATC, plan a direct route, accept the SID and STAR but then ask for a direct whenever I think I can. Specially during take off that should be a no brainer. During approach it may become more complicated because I doubt if ProATC vectoring is smart enough to not lead me into a mountain...

26 minutes ago, J van E said:

 Whenever I fly into Oslo I have to fly a rather complicated STAR but I just never see that done on FlightRadar24. The routes themselves also look pretty straight, without additional waypoints. 

I think I will simply take matters into my own hands. 😉 I will fly with ProATC, plan a direct route, accept the SID and STAR but then ask for a direct whenever I think I can. Specially during take off that should be a no brainer. During approach it may become more complicated because I doubt if ProATC vectoring is smart enough to not lead me into a mountain...

I’ve flown Concorde into ENGM many times and the STAR is very confusing. I imagine it’s designed that way for good reason but it’s lost on me. I tend to fly my own approach to keep my pax happy.

Regarding being vectored into a mountain RC4 has a NOTAMS option for airports in mountainous areas such as Innsbruck. You tick the box and are then instructed to descend if able. That keeps you safe. I imagine other ATC packages have the same option.

Edited September 17, 20187 yr by Ray Proudfoot

1 hour ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Speaking as someone who lives close to Manchester (EGCC) the first part of the SID is definitely flown. Westerly departures from 23L/R require a right turn soon after take-off to avoid overflying the town of Knutsford. Woe betide any pilot who broke that rule!

But I'm sure the rules are relaxed later in the SID especially in regard to altitude. As far as STARs are concerned I assume they will fly them until otherwise instructed by ATC which will always be the case.

Yup, can certainly confirm this from experience of having lived near EGCC for most of my life too, and from working there. Pretty much everything flies the initial part of the SID but gets told it can go direct to the first leg of its actual route plan. It's worth bearing in mind however, that in the event of a comms failure, having a SID assigned would mean both the aircraft and the ground would know exactly what the aircraft was gonna do, so they're pretty much always going to assign one for that reason anyway. 

This is not as unlikely a scenario as it might seem either. The newer control tower at EGCC lost power a couple of years ago and the older tower had to be cranked up and used in its place until the issue was sorted out. They did a good job of that and had that older tower up and running within 30 mins, but that did disrupt ATC and if ATC is disrupted, SIDs and STARs become critically important. More recently (this year in fact) a thunderstorm took out the power to the underground fueling system at EGCC and affected some other functions of the airport too, resulting in a situation requiring actual tankers to be used on aircraft over an entire weekend, which just goes to show that even big well equipped airports like Manchester can be subject to large disruptions. In unusual circumstances, standard procedures become an important convention to fall back on.

As Ray points out, there are noise abatement rules at EGCC for take offs from 23R/L which mean aircraft have to turn to avoid flying over the posh bits of the localities of Knutsford and Congleton (these places are where quite a few politicians live, but I'm sure that's just a coincidence lol).

Throttling back back and steering along the SID route means the airlines won't get into trouble. The airlines are 'fined' a number of aircraft departure slots for any infractions of the noise abatement requirements and there are several noise monitoring stations alongside the routes of those SIDS for that express purpose. I'd put money on the Antonov AN-12 we had in there about a fortnight ago having well and truly busted those rules when it took off and headed over to Doncaster; it was deafeningly loud. It also stunk like crazy of fuel and hilariously, all the crew were smoking in the back of the thing whilst it was being offloaded. Russians lol.

11 minutes ago, Chock said:

Yup, can certainly confirm this from experience of having lived near EGCC for most of my life too, and from working there. Pretty much everything flies the initial part of the SID but gets told it can go direct to the first leg of its actual route plan.

Exactly -- as I mentioned earlier, in the UK you are required to stay on the noise preferential route below 4000ft, so ATC will not vector you off the SID until you are above that height.

1 hour ago, J van E said:

Whenever I fly into Oslo I have to fly a rather complicated STAR but I just never see that done on FlightRadar24. The routes themselves also look pretty straight, without additional waypoints. 

Oslo operates a Point Merge system, so if you're flying all of the STAR then you're doing it wrong! Reference to the charts reveals:

Quote

STARs are based on PMS [Point Merge System] and accommodate basic continuous descent operations. Aircraft on STARs can expect clearance to the Merge Point (MP) when traffic permits, allowing for a precise sequencing whilst the aircraft maintains its own lateral navigation.

When cleared direct to the MP and also have received an instrument aprpoach clearance, follow the transition from MP to final as stated in the relevant IAP.

Between 0030-0600LT the shortest distance from the STAR starting point to the MP may be seen as the expected track to the start of the IAP. Deviation from the track may be regarded as a delaying action.

 

10 minutes ago, skelsey said:

 

Oslo operates a Point Merge system, so if you're flying all of the STAR then you're doing it wrong! Reference to the charts reveals:

 

Interesting! But I suppose there isn't an ATC addon that works with that system LOL 

I will have a look at some charts to see if I can find anything about that system. Are those MP's on the chart also...?

EDIT
Which charts are you referring to btw...? I can't find anything about PMS on the charts I use:

https://ais.avinor.no/AIP/Latest/aip/ad/engm/engm_en.html

Edited September 17, 20187 yr by Guest

4 hours ago, RALF9636 said:

PF3.

You can be vectored, fly complete SIDs and STARs or only parts of them. You can set up PF3 for what exactly you want to fly for each flight. Or you can have the free addon SimRandomizer (which works best with Multi Crew Experience but can also be used without it) make a random choice for you according to a preset you created for a specific airport or a type of airport. You can fly into the same airport several times and every flight will be different, for example with different shortcurts / directs within the STAR - like in the real world.

Be aware that PF3 does not know by itself about SIDs and STARs or shortcuts / directs. It takes some effort to set it up the way you want, but it is just a minor part of a thorough flightplanning if you've done it a few times. What some consider a deficiency of PF3 plays out its advantages when you want to fly procedures that are totally realistic for a specific airport.

If one uses Simbrief to make flight plans , it will almost always suggest the best Sid and Star that I use in PF3. 

2 hours ago, J van E said:

Thanks for all the interesting answers! I think what I need (and what doesn't exist 😉 ) is an ATC addon that decides by itself if vectors are better/needed or not. As it is now I as a pilot have to decide what to do, fly a SID or STAR or not. Of course I can ask in ProATC for a direct and take care of things myself but it's a shame there is no addon that does ATC a bit more realistic. it's quite black and white by default. 

Anyway, I mainly fly in Norway and over there I just can't find a plane that flies a SID or STAR. Clearly it indeed depends on where you fly. Whenever I fly into Oslo I have to fly a rather complicated STAR but I just never see that done on FlightRadar24. The routes themselves also look pretty straight, without additional waypoints. 

I think I will simply take matters into my own hands. 😉 I will fly with ProATC, plan a direct route, accept the SID and STAR but then ask for a direct whenever I think I can. Specially during take off that should be a no brainer. During approach it may become more complicated because I doubt if ProATC vectoring is smart enough to not lead me into a mountain...

PATC does a great job of flying the aircraft into a mountain. Using something like EFB or available approach charts, will keep that from happening. 

3 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Speaking as someone who lives close to Manchester (EGCC) the first part of the SID is definitely flown. Westerly departures from 23L/R require a right turn soon after take-off to avoid overflying the town of Knutsford. Woe betide any pilot who broke that rule!

But I'm sure the rules are relaxed later in the SID especially in regard to altitude. As far as STARs are concerned I assume they will fly them until otherwise instructed by ATC which will always be the case.

What you say Ray bears truth, because whenever I have had the chance to talk to the pilots, and at de-boarding asked them which SID or STAR they used,they invariably disclose, and ask me how I knew of names like DAYN, etc, which confirms your statement.

3 hours ago, J van E said:

During approach it may become more complicated because I doubt if ProATC vectoring is smart enough to not lead me into a mountain...

In Pro-ATC you can always ask the controller to assign a different altitude in case you want to descent or ascend due to an obstacle in ground, like a mountain for instance. This is all very well explained in the manual. As for the rest of the vectoring, no doubt it's capable of vector you to an ILS or a RNAV approach without any trouble.

Cheers, Ed