Akila

how to limit my Yoke/Aircraft Max angle?

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Hi all, I have a Saitek Yoke (pro flight), the Yoke turns (left/right) up to 45 degrees on each side, (I think it's called "X" Axis).
However, in P3D, the plane's yoke goes to the full 90 degrees when I am at the 45 degrees on my Yoke,  which makes it very hard to control the airplane as they are out
of SYNC (yoke limitation to go behind 45 degrees).

My question is:
is there a way to limit my airplanes in P3D (e.g. Twin-otter, PMDG, etc.)  'X Axis' that the max they will go is 45 degrees like my yoke?
maybe some sort of calibration, dead zone, FSUIPC etc. not sure how.
wanted to consult with you experts..

Edited by Akila
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Not quite sure I understand your problem. If the yoke in the a/c is designed to rotate 90 degrees left/right why would you want to change it? The calibration is meant to scale your physical yoke to the visual so that full physical travel(45 degrees) translates to full visual (90degrees).

Vic

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the only thing you can do to synch the "visual" thing is reduce sensitivity, but that will (as vg mentions) is reduce you movement. On newer published planes I always turn of the yoke anyway, that way you don't see those yoke anomalies, plus you can see switches etc.  

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@vgbaron, 

I have a feeling you did not understand the issue I described and it is not the visuals that bothers me, it is the ailerons deflections as of that that bothers me
let me try and elaborate, break it down further.

in general as much as the yoke moves in the cockpit to the left/right, the right/left ailerons keep moving up/down until reaching the maximum they can deflect, until the yoke is 90 degrees in cockpit. in return that controls the turn and turn sensitivity/angle, etc...

when the yoke in the cockpit is at 15 degrees to the left/right,  the ailerons are not as extreme like when the yoke in the cockpit is at let's say at 50 degrees and so on. 
So if I move the cockpit yoke (nothing to do with my Saitek/Physical yoke), let's say 10 degrees, than the ailerons are deflected slightly to present that amount of turn I wish having. if the pilot wants a sharper turn he would add some more degrees in the yoke, let's say he will turn it to 20 degrees, etc.

My issue is in which I am trying to resolve is:
if I move my physical yoke about 10 degrees, it should move my cockpit yoke the same which would than traverse to the ailerons to an angle that represents yoke movement of 10 degrees in the cockpit.
However, in my case if I move my physical yoke 10 degrees, in the sim it moves it over 20 degrees and also of course the ailerons moving corresponding to a ~20 degrees yoke turn effect in the cockpit and not 10 degrees like I moved my physical yoke. that is because my physical yoke only reaches 45 degrees, which tells the SIM it is the full 90 degrees as that is the peak of the axis (+-)  
if I move my physical yoke to 30 degrees , in the sim it would have an effect on the ailerons of like moving the yoke in the cockpit to 70 degrees.
The reason is known and make seance. all of this is because SIM yoke can move up to 90 degrees (which they gradually effect/moves the ailerons) while my physical yoke could only reach 45 degrees, but the SIM detects my physical yoke movements from 0-45 degrees as 0-90 degrees which potentially doubles the turn/ailerons effects on any movement in between my 0-45 degrees physical yoke to compensate and reach 90 degrees..

to prove this theory, i installed my friends Saitek Cessna yoke, which does go to the full 90 degrees extent turns
and you can see the perfect match. the ailerons and internal SIM yoke are perfect match to the physical movement (degrees wise)
of the physical Cessna yoke,  because both could SYNC as they can both reach 90 degrees turn axis.
I actually need to use more angle/degree on the Cessna yoke - which matches more my real life experience - to make the same turns I did on the regular Saitek yoke - so we know for sure it effects the ailerons deflection as well and not only limited to visuals.
needless to say that the yoke compare were done on the same plane(s) (PMDG 737 & 777, Aerosoft DHC-6 Twin-otter & LM build-in planes), same SIM/computer.

so my question is how do I limit in the SIM that the maximum Yoke movement would be 45 degrees (which would perfectly match the physical yoke movements limits)?
as of now the SIM detects my 45 degrees yoke angle (the peak of the axis) as 90 degrees yoke angle and any angle in between as double, and of course it traverses it to the Aircraft which effects the ailerons effects more than needed.

Edited by Akila

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Just tested this to confirm..

If using the built in calibration for ailerons, just set the sensitivity to 1/2 of full.

If using FSUIPC to calibrate it is just a tiny bit more difficult. One can make it more sensitive thru the FSUIPC dialog easily, the other way around not so.
1) With the sim closed open up your FSUIPC.ini in a text editor
2) In the [JoystickCalibration] section look for the entry -
Aileron=-16384,-100,100,16384  (Numbers will not be the same - 1st# = left full, 2nd & 3rd#s = null zone, 4th# = right full)
3) Adjust the 1st & 4th numbers above by the factor you determine to match the vc yoke - 1 divided by how much you want to reduce sensitivity
   1 / 0.5 = 2 ---> +/-16384 * 2 = 32768
4) The new resulting entry will be -
Aileron=-32768,-100,100,32768 
5) IMPERATIVE!! If there is a line "SlopeAileron=some number" - remove this line. The slope needs the full range of in versus out to calculate properly. 

The above 2 procedures will match the VC yoke to your physical yoke visually, but it will reduce the actual aileron effectiveness by 1/2.  (That is what you wanted correct?)

(OPTIONAL) Either 2 of the above procedures will now affect the aircraft accordingly - flight wise, adjust if you feel necessary. It will now bring the aircraft performance back to 45* of yoke movement = full aileron (not yoke) deflection
1) In the aircraft.cfg of the affected aircraft look for the entry "aileron_effectiveness=" under the [flight_tuning] section.
2) Multiply this value by the value used above.  ex.
aileron_effectiveness=1.0 
times 2 becomes
aileron_effectiveness=2.0  

This should work for you. 

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I'm am sincerely not trying to be rude....

However, a little common sense goes a long way here. You have a physical controller that is limited to 45 degrees of deflection. The only reason you see the yoke in the VC moving to 90 degrees is because that's the max deflection for said airplane. In order for you to be able to move the control surfaces in the sim to the max allowed for said airplane, you are just going to have to live with the fact that your physical yoke doesnt go past 45 degrees. Learn how to fly the sim using your yoke. 

Now to answer your question about getting them to match up, you'll have to lower your sensitivity for your aileron axis within the sim until the yokes match up.

But because of this, you'll never get the full range of motion from the flight surfaces that the airplane is rated for. Your essentially making the airplane leas maneuverable. 

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20 minutes ago, spokes2112 said:

Just tested this to confirm..

If using the built in calibration for ailerons, just set the sensitivity to 1/2 of full.

If using FSUIPC to calibrate it is just a tiny bit more difficult. One can make it more sensitive thru the FSUIPC dialog easily, the other way around not so.
1) With the sim closed open up your FSUIPC.ini in a text editor
2) In the [JoystickCalibration] section look for the entry -
Aileron=-16384,-100,100,16384  (Numbers will not be the same - 1st# = left full, 2nd & 3rd#s = null zone, 4th# = right full)
3) Adjust the 1st & 4th numbers above by the factor you determine to match the vc yoke - 1 divided by how much you want to reduce sensitivity
   1 / 0.5 = 2 ---> +/-16384 * 2 = 32768
4) The new resulting entry will be -
Aileron=-32768,-100,100,32768 
5) IMPERATIVE!! If there is a line "SlopeAileron=some number" - remove this line. The slope needs the full range of in versus out to calculate properly. 

The above 2 procedures will match the VC yoke to your physical yoke visually, but it will reduce the actual aileron effectiveness by 1/2.  (That is what you wanted correct?)

(OPTIONAL) Either 2 of the above procedures will now affect the aircraft accordingly - flight wise, adjust if you feel necessary. It will now bring the aircraft performance back to 45* of yoke movement = full aileron (not yoke) deflection
1) In the aircraft.cfg of the affected aircraft look for the entry "aileron_effectiveness=" under the [flight_tuning] section.
2) Multiply this value by the value used above.  ex.
aileron_effectiveness=1.0 
times 2 becomes
aileron_effectiveness=2.0  

This should work for you. 

wow, thank you that is a great help.
so the difference between using the builtin FS settings and/or FSUIPC, to the option on the airceaft CFG is one is generic to all and the other is specific to an airplane?

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12 minutes ago, ahsmatt7 said:

I'm am sincerely not trying to be rude....

you are just going to have to live with the fact that your physical yoke doesnt go past 45 degrees. Learn how to fly the sim using your yoke. 

or the other option which I am taking is to tweak it to better match reality (at least up to 45 degrees), that case I won't have to live with this 🙂
it is a price i am willing to pay, not to be able and have more than 45 degrees (maybe 3% of my flight time I need it) for the benefit
of 97% of my flight time of having a much more realistic ailerons movements on my yoke up to 45 degrees yoke movement 

Edited by Akila

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26 minutes ago, spokes2112 said:

If using the built in calibration for ailerons, just set the sensitivity to 1/2 of full.

The above 2 procedures will match the VC yoke to your physical yoke visually, but it will reduce the actual aileron effectiveness by 1/2.  (That is what you wanted correct?)

Reducing the sensitivity does not decrease the effectiveness! It only slows down the flight controls movement. I strongly advise not to reduce the sensitivity from max.

The only thing that happens that you are introducing a considerable delay in surface/aircraft response and that's definitely not desirable.

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It's your sim to set up as you want but if realism is your goal - it seems to me you are going in the opposite direction.

As to aileron deflection - if you weren't in a sim you wouldn't see them anyway in heavy a/c and in many light a/c.  Modifying the performance of the a/c to accommodate a visual preference seems unusual if realism is your goal, IMHO.

But - it's your sim.

Vic

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3 minutes ago, vgbaron said:

It's your sim to set up as you want but if realism is your goal - it seems to me you are going in the opposite direction.

As to aileron deflection - if you weren't in a sim you wouldn't see them anyway in heavy a/c and in many light a/c.  Modifying the performance of the a/c to accommodate a visual preference seems unusual if realism is your goal, IMHO.

But - it's your sim.

Vic

what type of yoke do you own?

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7 minutes ago, J35OE said:

Reducing the sensitivity does not decrease the effectiveness! It only slows down the flight controls movement. I strongly advise not to reduce the sensitivity from max.

The only thing that happens that you are introducing a considerable delay in surface/aircraft response and that's definitely not desirable.

which one of the three options he mentioned is not recommended?

the FS builtin one, FSIUPC or the aircraft.cfg?

Edited by Akila

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I have a CH and it also only goes 45 degrees.

Vic

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If you are concerned because it annoys you visually - I can understand. If you think it affects the way you fly - not at all.  In the sim you have animation and flight dynamics. Ideally the animations match what is happening with the flight dynamics but in the sim this is not always true.  You might *see* the ailerons deflect fully but the a/c only reacts to a partial deflection. In the sim do not fly using the visual position of the controls, control the a/c with your inputs based upon what the a/c is DOING not what the animation is doing.

Vic

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13 minutes ago, vgbaron said:

If you are concerned because it annoys you visually - I can understand. If you think it affects the way you fly - not at all.  In the sim you have animation and flight dynamics. Ideally the animations match what is happening with the flight dynamics but in the sim this is not always true.  You might *see* the ailerons deflect fully but the a/c only reacts to a partial deflection. In the sim do not fly using the visual position of the controls, control the a/c with your inputs based upon what the a/c is DOING not what the animation is doing.

Vic

visuals is not the issue. it effect for sure ailerons deflection (read my original post how I proved it does).

haven't you noticed how hardly you stair the yoke and you getting very good sharp turns (maybe 10 - 15 degrees yoke turn)?
that is not realistic (based on my own humble flight experience I doing on Cessna in life), in reality you need a lot more stair for the same turn you getting with your CH yoke.
and the reason behind it is that you are getting double the amount of ailerons deflection because your yoke transmits more stair than you actually doing (that is where we are getting with the 90 degree vs the 45 degree mismatching).
to try it yourself, go to a yoke that does reach 90 degrees, such as saitek Cessna yoke and you would immediately realize what I am talking about, you
will tell the difference on the spot.

try it for yourself, don't rely on what I am telling you 🙂

Edited by Akila

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3 minutes ago, Akila said:

haven't you noticed how hardly you stair the yoke and you getting very good sharp turns?

that is not realistic (based on my own humble flight experience I doing on Cessna in life), in reality you need a lot more stair for the same turn you getting with your CH yoke.
and the reason behind it is that you are getting double the amount of ailerons deflection because your yoke transmits more stair than you actually doing (that is where we are getting with the 90 degree vs the 45 degree mismatching).

So you want to cut in half the realistic roll rate of a Cessna because you are using a yoke with an unrealistic low aileron travel.

Btw, I was referring to the FS calibration. There's no sensitivity setting in the cfg file. 

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15 minutes ago, J35OE said:

So you want to cut in half the realistic roll rate of a Cessna because you are using a yoke with an unrealistic low aileron travel.

not exactly, what I am doing is limiting the yoke in the aircraft to not move more than 45 degrees.
what it does, it matches reality to my gear, at least up to 45 degrees.
if you asking what about anything behind 45 degrees?, than yes it is toasted, gone, but i hardly need such angle anyway.

i prefer reality on 97% of the times I use the control over the 3% of the times I might need more than 45 degrees yoke command.

saitek Cessna yoke owners that moved from the regular pro flight know exactly what I am talking about.
they felt the difference on the spot...

P.S that is how i realized that that was my issue. i couldn't pin point why the controls are so not realistic? why the yoke movement yields a lot more aircraft turn in the SIM than in real life.
until by chance I had an opportunity to try out my friend's yoke and it was perfect, than I realized why... the degree mismatch between the yoke and SIM.
to prove it i took it to my SIM and i saw teh difference, than with my original yoke i could clearly see how at max 45 degrees it deflects the ailerons to the same level that the Cessna yoke does at 90 degrees turn. 

Edited by Akila

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Matching the yoke angle doesn't make it much more 'realistic' because you are still playing with cheap yoke without force feedback, or control loading or at least a realistic deflection angle.

That's the compromise you usually have to make with desktop sims.

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force feedback, control loading, is not relevant for this conversation/issue i raised, it is off topic (it is a discussion by itself), I am only talking about ailerons behavior to match realism and deflection angle to physical yoke in hand.

if you have a yoke that is limited to 45 degrees turn, you suffer from the same problem, you just did not realize it, you will once you try a 90 degrees yoke or hand fly a real airplane and you would spot it instantly.

Edited by Akila

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3 minutes ago, Akila said:

force feedback, control loading, is not relevant to this conversation/issue i raised, it is off topic (it is a discussion by itself), I am only talking about ailerons behavior to match realism and deflection angle to physical yoke in hand.

if you have a yoke that is limited to 45 degrees turn, you suffer from the same problem, you just did not realize it, you will once you try a 90 degrees yoke
and you would spot it instantly.

If you really think that control loading etc. is off topic and not relevant than you have apparently never flown with such a yoke and you are only guessing.

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8 minutes ago, J35OE said:

If you really think that control loading etc. is off topic and not relevant than you have apparently never flown with such a yoke and you are only guessing.

i said it is off topic for the specific issue I raised.
the same we can raise many other things that do not match reality, like cockpit movement that we don't have (motion cockpit) and professional compute aerodynamics, etc. but those are discussions by them selves that deserve their own post/thread, not related to my original post/topic.

force feedback / control loading, is not relevant for the 45 vs 90 degrees ailerons/deflection issue.

Edited by Akila

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Hello,

As I understand the issue:

- You have a yoke which has a full 180 degrees of travel (90 degrees left and right), as does the aircraft

- But the control respnse in the aircraft is non-linear.

This is indeed the case and I presume because Microsoft reduced the sensitivity around the centre detent artificially to make the default aircraft feel less sensitive (especially to thosw with less range of movement on e.g. joysticks etc) and thus easier to fly.

You are correct that it is a pain and makes accurate flying quite difficult! 

The only solution I can offer - and what I do - is to use a registered version of FSUIPC and assign your controls through that. You can then adjust the input slope, making the response more sensitive around the centre and less sensitive toward the end of the travel in an attempt to 'cancel out' the slope MS have hardcoded. With a little experimentation you will be able to get a nice linear control response where the yoke deflection in the sim matches your hardware. It does indeed make the aeroplane a lot easier and less twitchy to fly! 

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59 minutes ago, Akila said:

or the other option which I am taking is to tweak it to better match reality (at least up to 45 degrees), that case I won't have to live with this 🙂
it is a price i am willing to pay, not to be able and have more than 45 degrees (maybe 3% of my flight time I need it) for the benefit
of 97% of my flight time of having a much more realistic ailerons movements on my yoke up to 45 degrees yoke movement 

I see your point but a number of have already told you how to fix it. Even if we disagree with you. Just lower the sensitivity of your controller through fs. 

Or, just get a new controller.

I picked up a thrustmaster warthog a couple days ago. I switched from a 10 year old x52.

Even though it doesnt deflect a full 90 degrees, flying on the sim now feels much more close to reality than it ever did with the x52. 

Getting a new controller may help.

 

Another thing as well, like I said before, learn to fly with YOUR yoke. I have over 4000 hours and more than half of that is in airliners. I have never felt that a joystick or a yoke that never fully deflected felt any less real than an airplane. I never have had issues over controlling an airplane in the sim.

I mean hell, it takes very very little co trol input from the yokes in real life to initiate any change in attitude in a real airplane. 

I dont see why totes having such a problem with your yoke. 

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1 minute ago, skelsey said:

Hello,

As I understand the issue:

- You have a yoke which has a full 180 degrees of travel (90 degrees left and right), as does the aircraft

- But the control respnse in the aircraft is non-linear.

This is indeed the case and I presume because Microsoft reduced the sensitivity around the centre detent artificially to make the default aircraft feel less sensitive (especially to thosw with less range of movement on e.g. joysticks etc) and thus easier to fly.

You are correct that it is a pain and makes accurate flying quite difficult! 

The only solution I can offer - and what I do - is to use a registered version of FSUIPC and assign your controls through that. You can then adjust the input slope, making the response more sensitive around the centre and less sensitive toward the end of the travel in an attempt to 'cancel out' the slope MS have hardcoded. With a little experimentation you will be able to get a nice linear control response where the yoke deflection in the sim matches your hardware. It does indeed make the aeroplane a lot easier and less twitchy to fly! 

He said his controller only travels 45 degrees...

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15 minutes ago, Akila said:

force feedback, control loading, is not relevant for this conversation/issue i raised, it is off topic (it is a discussion by itself), I am only talking about ailerons behavior to match realism and deflection angle to physical yoke in hand.

if you have a yoke that is limited to 45 degrees turn, you suffer from the same problem, you just did not realize it, you will once you try a 90 degrees yoke or hand fly a real airplane and you would spot it instantly.

You haven't mentioned anything about the elevators being out if wack. I know for a fact that that should be raising an eyebrow for you as well. 

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